I posted in the WDT about how Amazon released a TV pilot for their adaptation of The Man in the High Castle. For those not familiar, its based on an alternate history book where Germany wins WWII by beating the US in atom bomb development and nukes Washington DC to win the war. It takes place 20 years later in the mid-60s where Americans are completely ruled by the Third Reich. I tried to fathom this scenario actually playing out in real life and its both scary and fascinating to comprehend what the world would be like if that had happened. (If anything, message board racial discussions would probably be a bit different, snork snork.) Theres also many other books that take an approach to alternate history. I read a story once where the Roman Empire (somehow) accidentally develops the steam engine, jump starting the Industrial Revolution a few thousand years early. The result being the Roman empire never collapsing, conquering the whole world, and colonizing the solar system by the year 2000. Focus: What historical event with a different outcome would have the greatest impact on today? What would the world look like? Alt Focus: Alternate history, in general.
If Rome hadn't fallen we would probably be far ahead of where we are now technologically. With regards to scenarios like the Nazis winning WW2 I wonder if it would actually develop into a 1984 scenario. The assumption that every subsequent dictator/ruling class in going to be the same kind of oppressor and equally insane is kind of hard to believe. I think based on human nature and evolving technologies the trend would be away from these totalitarian policies rather than reinforcing them. Take Stalin and Mao for example. Russia and China aren't exactly the beacons of freedom, but they aren't the post WW2 kill everyone who has an opinion terror regimes they were either. Of course, there's also North Korea. I've always wondered what would happen if the Renaissance had occurred in Africa or Asia instead. Maybe everyone would pissed off at those privileged (I fucking hate that word at this point) blacks or Asians, but then again it would have been possible to spread ideas without centuries of slavery and colonizing the entire planet. Not sure every civilization would have taken the same route. When it comes to these 'what if' scenarios trying predict what would have happened, going back even as recent as 20 years is kind of laughable though.
Thats the thing, it almost did. Around the 13th century, Baghdad was the artistic, cultural, and scientific center of world. It was far ahead of anything going on in Europe, which was going in the opposite direction with the Dark Ages. The problem was, in the mid-1200s the Mongol Empire was conquering the shit out of Asia. It invaded Baghdad and destroyed essentially everything including libraries, mosques, scientific centers, the pretty advanced aqueduct, and murdering anyone who was an authority on anything. A lot of historians believe that the city and Islam never, ever recovered from that.
In regards to the World Wars I wonder what would've happened if Archduke Ferdinand hadn't been assassinated due to a quite frankly incredible series of events. Extra Credits did an excellent video series on World War I that touches on how everything that could've gone wrong, did. As far as conquering armies, I wonder where we'd be now if Ogedei Khan hadn't suffered a heart attack and the Mongol horde wrecked Europe's shit the way they did Asia's.
To say the least. Not nearly the same degree as entire empires lasting or Nazis winning the war, but... I finally started reading 'Salinger' (it's amazeballs, so far). Learned that he had the first six chapters of Catcher in his pocket when he landed on D-Day, and continued writing it throughout the war (literally sitting in a fox hole with a typewriter, at times). Along with a detailed refresher of just how obscenely awful that battle was, it made me think of how easily he could've died, since people all around him were getting blown to bits, and what a cultural loss that would've been on its own. Further, I don't think it's much of a stretch to say there's a good chance that, had he died, John Lennon would still be alive (or at least wouldn't have been murdered). Don't have a prediction beyond 'Lennon would have made more music', but Salinger's legacy alone is hard to overstate (Catcher still sells half a million copies per year to this day), so it's trippy to think of what we wouldn't have known we're missing, had he been part of the majority who died throughout the war.
The funny thing is when you talk to some people they find it really hard to believe Islam was, for quite a long time too, the intellectual center of the world. What's interesting about that scenario if you wonder if Islam would have adopted other cultures into its own the way Christianity did, or if it would even exist in the same form today. Also, Islam is many thingS, but racist isn't one of them. Meh, some of the history in that video is pretty bad. I guess they forgot about the Franco Prussian war. It's not the Napoleonic wars, but it's a serious war involving two major powers. Also, when you look at the time period and the power struggles going on it looks like some sort of conflict was inevitable.
Maybe the MLB could have drafted the incredible young pitching talent named Fidel Castro. That way you guys could have enjoyed the cigars and run for the last five and a half decades like us. Oh, and no missle crisis and Red Scare paranoia.
The Battle of Saratoga, in 1777, was arguably the major turning point in the American Revolution. Benedict Arnold was largely responsible for the American victory, as he defied Horatio Gates' orders during the battle. Had the Americans not been victorious then Britain would have almost certainly won the war.
How about when the Mongols were destroying every army they met on their way into Europe? They were fucking shit up, and quite possibly could have gone on to take the whole continent, but the Khan (Genghis' grandson I believe) died (not war-related) and so the armies went home to figure out who would become the new khan. I have no idea what the world would look like today if the Mongols had taken Europe in the 1200's, but I bet it would be a fuck of a lot different.
What if Constantine didn't make Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire? Basically, by the time Rome fell, it was on its last legs for numerous reasons, through various means they had extended the life of that empire beyond it's natural termination. But everything that followed in Western culture/thought/politics (whether or not Rome fell) - was in part based on that one decision by one Emperor almost 2000 years ago. You change that, you literally change everything.
What if that asteroid never hit the Earth and the dinosaurs were all still alive? You'd change literally everything.
I think about this scenario on occasion. The history of the western world is indelibly tied to Christianity (Tom Holland's Forge of Christendom is a great read). Technological advances probably would not suffer, though would advancement be at the same pace? What about the dark ages? The Renaissance? The Crusades would never have happened; would relations be better or worse with Middle East? How would America look without protestant influence and thought at its inception? USA might not even exist. Religion itself would be crazy to think about. Would we be seeing a publicized shift to atheism from paganism, or would another monotheist religion gain traction? Or is it inevitable that Christianity does make the jump from a sect/cult. Crazy. Every little part of our culture would be changed. Focus: I think even more about an Al Gore win in 2000. At the very least think of the debate on climate change; it would enter the presidential agenda 10 years sooner. Iraq and those trillions spent would probably not have happened either. Our relations with the Middle East would be intrinsically different. Good or bad, could go either way. Manbearpig awareness would be up 100%. Thank god. You fools.
This thread reminds me of "Watchmen". I don't know if it really counts as an accurate account of alternative history because the premise is "What if superheros existed and aided the US in winning the Vietnam War". On the one hand, it requires the existence of superheros. On the other hand, many of the superheros in the graphic novel are vigilantes rather than aliens, gods, or genetic mutations. One piece of alternative history I have always thought about is kind of the opposite of The Man in the High Castle and also based on the title of this thread. What if Hitler got into art school? Would someone else have come along to start WWII? Would something even more horrific have happened?
Alternate WW2 fictions are probably the most common of the genre. There's one similar that you mentioned that I've heard of where Hitler gets run over by a car or something in 1933 right before the Beer Hall Putsch and a smarter, more ruthless German leader wins the war. The biggest twist in The Man in the High Castle (the book anyway) is that the characters imagine what would have happened if the Allies won. In their version, the U.S. and Britain have a Cold War instead of the Soviets and Britain reinvigorated its colonial expansionism.
Hey now, there is always Turtledove's Civil War alt history stuff. I think the alternate alternate history stuff in Man In The High Castle was one of the more inspired parts of the novel. The stuff about knock off history memorabilia was kind of lame. Alternate Civil War stuff is weird to think about. How long could have slavery really lasted if the South actually won? I figure a new Northern Union would have continued to cripple an Independent Southern Confederacy with trade tariffs and embargoes. The South would have had to win a unconditional victory over the North, something I could never see happening.
Except almost every historian believes he existed. I don't personally believe in any of the mythology, but saying he was never born is almost definitely wrong. Sorry, it just annoys me when people throw this out there because they assume it's the case when they know fuck all about the history of the time period. Going by the what if Hitler was admitted to art school thing... What if he had been given a different mission than to spy on the worker's party? Maybe he would have joined anyway, who knows? Maybe he would have been just a grunt even if he had joined later instead of the party leader. The movement was obsessed with hating Jews from its inception, but it's pretty unclear whether they would have seized total power without Hitler at the top, or even if they did whoever was in charge may not have made so many suicidal declare war on everyone decisions.