I should have clarified. There is no way Melo goes to FA as a Nugget. Of course Denver is going to say that. Your trade leverage is tremendously weak if you seem desperate to trade somebody. They will quietly go to his agent and explain that he has until suchandsuch a date to sign the agreement, or they will trade his ass to Toronto or some other miserable NBA franchise for the rest of this season. There, he can play out the string and then get together with CP3 and Darko and become the big 3 in Cleveland.
The Lakers weren't the good guys in that Derek Fisher story...it was the Jazz that released him from his contract outright so that he could move his daughter closer to specialists in LA (or some other city with the right facilities). And I seriously doubt Kobe met him at the airport, but he might have sent his bitch Sahsa V. to pick him up.
Actually, the plan was that the Jazz would allow Derek Fisher to get out of his contract and sign with the New York Knicks. Because that was where his daughter had her operations and treatment. In New York. From a medical perspective, there was no reason to choose LA over Salt Lake City. In fact, Utah's world famous Huntsman Cancer Institute was a better emergency spot than any of the hospitals in Los Angeles, which don't have any dedicated retinoblastoma treatment divisions, either. In other words, Derek Fisher used his daughter's legitimate and serious illness to trick a dying owner (the late Larry Miller) and a stand-up GM (Kevin O'Conner) into allowing him to re-sign with his favorite team, the Lakers. Keep in mind he was originally traded from the Warriors to the Jazz prior to that season, and was unhappy about the situation. THAT is why the Jazz fans boo him like crazy every time he comes back, and why Fisher is a piece of shit who I hope tears both ACLs, MCLs, and PCLs, and retires a broken cripple. With all this recent talk about class-less acts from NBA superstars, it's funny how few NBA fans know the details of this particular story.
I guess I knew about half of those facts (not being happy about the trade to Utah) and I do recall New York and Miami being mentioned as possible destinations. But, I don't remember hearing about the Knicks being the promised destination, and if that's so then that was definitely a dick move. But after hitting that garbage shot in 2004 and fouing Brent Barry's head with his ass in 2008, it's not like I needed a reason to hate Derek Fisher anyway.
I'm not calling you a liar at all, but do you have any sources for this? I had no idea this went on and would like to read up about it.
Yeah dude, definitely. After this season, he's going to be the all time leader in 3's made (eclipsing Reggie, and with a better %) and a top 20-25 all time scorer (passing players like Bird, Payton, Drexler and Elgin Baylor). Although he went ice cold for three games following that epic game 2 performance in the finals, he's still going quite strong. Always a hugely positive role model in the league, worked on both ends of the floor who did much more than just spot shoot offensively, is an NBA champion and one of the top 5 shooters ever; easily a HOFer.
Fisher info: Here Here Interview with Fisher Given Utah's world-class cancer and eye institutes (people often move TO Utah to get treatment), and the multitude of other places he could have gone, it really appears as if he just wanted to be back in LA. Utah fans really hate him
I would change "easily" to "likely", but otherwise I agree. In my mind, Ray Allen fits generally into the same category as someone like Charles Barkley (first-ballot HOF) or Gary Payton (not yet eligible, though a likely pick). Both of those players were perenniel All-Stars that enjoyed decent post-season success. In fact, in some respects Allen has a leg up on both of them; he was a coaches' selection All-Star for three separate teams in two conferences (Barkely was a fan-voted All-Star for the Rockets and didn't even play in the game) and his championship ring is arguably more impressive than Payton's based on contribution. His career stats obviously speak for themselves. As for some of the cons against his inclusion, some of the knocks that were used against Reggie Miller also apply here: he barely got any MVP votes while he was at the top of his game and he only has two All-NBA Team nods to his credit. As a leading man, his Bucks and Sonics didn't exactly put the fear of God in anyone during the playoffs, either. But his longevity and consistency should resonate with voters and like you mentioned he's had a pretty tame reputation over the years. If I were betting, I'd put money down on his enshrinement but bet against a first-ballot selection.
Binky posted some good links, but I mostly read about it on <a class="postlink" href="http://www.deseretnews.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.deseretnews.com</a> around the time of the transaction. Those articles did remind me of another important point, which was that Fisher's wife absolutely hated it in Utah, and wanted out as soon as possible. The depiction of the press conference where owner Larry Miller cried, called Fisher a "great leader" whose heart was concerned with the right things (family over basketball), and granted him an unconditional release (practically unheard of) is very much accurate. I'm thinking about it now, and can't come up with a more disgraceful, treacherous act from a player in the history of NBA. The Boozer situation, which everyone made such a big deal about, involved deceitful/illegal acts from the owner's side as well, and both sides were trying to play one another. And neither Boozer nor Gund profited from a little girl's cancer. Ray Allen is one of my favorite players ever, but he is not in the same category as a Barkley, and arguably a bit below Payton. Barkley was an MVP, and a real force of nature. Payton was one of the two best point guards in the league along with Stockton, tremendous on both ends, an all-time top ten PG, and a top 5 player for several years. Allen, for the majority of his career, was a top 10-20 player who was never quite on the level of guys like Bryant, Iverson, or even McGrady and Grant Hill at their respective best. He only made the All-NBA Second Team once, and the Third Team once. He got the most out of his talents, which were considerable, but he never possessed that absolute elite tier of speed and athleticism. Like Reggie Miller, (who I feel he has a better career than) Allen has great longevity, thanks to his intelligence, dedication, and taking care of his body better than most guys in the NBA. I think he should definitely make the Hall-of-Fame, but comparable/better players have taken at least several attempts to get in.
I'll take the hit for that one; I stopped writing that sentence midway through, switched to another screen, and when I got back to it I forgot to revise my thought. What I meant to say, but failed to, was more like "I'd put him generally somewhere between recent retirees Charles Barkley and Gary Payton." That means we'd probably have some discussion over Payton v. Allen but it was a mistake on my part to compare him to Barkley. I love me some Chuckie B., and I did him a disservice with that poorly-worded thought. Here's the quick rundown on Allen v. Payton, as I see it... STATS: Ray Allen is nearly certain to leave the NBA as the most prolific 3-pt shooter in history, and will pass Payton on the all-time scoring list easily next season (as if that even mattered). Payton's stats are nothing to scoff at, but as a point guard he's only 7th in assists and as a defender he's only 3rd in steals with Jason Kidd probably soon to overtake him. ADVANTAGE ALLEN AWARDS: Easy. As we both mentioned, Allen has only made two All-NBA teams and barely registered on MVP ballots during his prime. Payton consistently scored MVP votes (though admittedly not many) and was a mainstay on the All-NBA team and All-Defensive team for a whole decade. He also won Defensive Player of the Year as a guard. ADVANTAGE PAYTON LEGACY: Both are/were perenniel All-Stars, though Payton only ever made his teams as a Sonic. Allen has impressively made the team as a Buck, Sonic, and Celtic. Both have a single championship ring, though Payton will always have the knock of unsuccessfully piggybacking Shaq and Kobe to get one during their prime before he helped the Heat win theirs outright. He also became somewhat of a mercenary in his twilight years, and ring-chasing isn't exactly an endearing quality where the Hall of Fame is concerned (see: Mitch Richmond, or alternatively John Stockton). Allen can rightfully be considered part of a team of heavily favored ringers, though coming over via trade is a lot different than taking a pay cut to join a champion after your best years are behind you (see: Michael Finley...and Gary Payton). Also, playing well into your late 30s is a pretty impressive feat for a shooter. SLIGHT ADVANTAGE ALLEN. Basically, when Gary Payton comes up for consideration in 2012(?) we'll be able to get a better idea of Ray Allen's HOF odds. But right now I'd say they're pretty good.
I would give a considerable advantage in stats to Payton. Total number of 3 pointers is a non-prestigious stat, whereas being 3rd all-time in steals and 7th in assists is phenomenal and very significant. Just take a look at some of the guy on the all-time list for three pointers; <a class="postlink" href="http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fg3_career.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... areer.html</a> Dale Ellis is 3rd, Peja is 4th, Rice is 8th, Eddie Jones 9th, Van Exel is 11th, Michael Finley is 15th, Brent Barry 16th, etc.. Most are good to very good players, but none of them Hall of Fame worthy. In fact, Miller (debatable), Allen, Kidd, Nash, Pierce, and Richmond (debatable) are the only ones in the top 20 with a significant chance of making the NBA. 6/20. Not so great. Meanwhile, <a class="postlink" href="http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ast_career.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... areer.html</a> The vast majority of these guys are either in the Hall-of-Fame, or came very close/should be there. (How Maurice Cheeks wasn't inducted after being nominated several times is beyond me) Looking at Payton's and Allen's stats head-to-head per game, we have Payton; 16.3 PPG, 6.7 APG, 3.9 RPG, 1.8 SPG, 46.6% FG (with 4 last seasons of depreciated stats) Allen; 20.5 PPG, 3.7 APG, 4.3 RPG, 1.2 SPG, 45.0% FG Payton was a PG and Allen an SG, so 4 fewer points is balanced out by 3 greater assists, Payton's partially higher FG percentage is explained by attempting fewer 3s than Allen did, but his higher steals per game gives him slightly better career stats at this moment. However, Allen will play for a few more years, and his numbers will drop significantly in the process, as Payton's did in his last four years. Bottom line is, Payton's career and per game stats are considerably better than Ray Allen's, not worse. And I write that as a bigger Allen than Glove fan. (Although I like Payton a lot, too) I don't know how you can give Allen an advantage here, either. With Payton as their best player, the Sonics won 60+ games in the regular season, were the perennial top seed in the West, and made the NBA Finals before falling to an all-time great Chicago Bulls. Forget his later career; the fact that Payton was unquestionably the best player on an elite team that won its conference means a lot. Did Allen ever do anything remotely like that? No. His best result was playing on the Sonics in 2005, when they won between 50-55 games, and were eliminated in the Western Conference semi-finals by the Spurs. That was one year, and the difference between Allen and Rashard Lewis wasn't as great as the gap between Payton and Kemp. Sure, a 37 year-old Payton didn't do as much for his championship team as a 32 year-old Ray Allen did for his, but that's besides the point. Payton has a solid advantage in this category, too. I would say they are very good, and Allen absolutely deserves it, but who knows? Payton is an absolute no brainer first-ballot lock. Allen not quite, but still high.
Whoa whoa whoa! I'll give up the fact that 3-pt shooting is an arguably trivial stat populated by a lot of one-trick specialists...so long as you admit that leaving the league as its all-time leader is impressive nonetheless. But Gary Payton was unquestionably the best player on that Sonics team that went to the Finals? I call a foul on you, sir. Only twice during the six-year period when the Sonics were either the #1 or #2 seed did Payton lead the team in scoring...and barely, at that. During most of those years Shawn Kemp was putting up 18+ points, 10+ rebounds, and shooting over .510 from the field. Looking at just the one year in that period when they broke through to the Finals - 1996 - the two of them were putting up even numbers of points. I'm not saying Payton wasn't an integral part of that Sonics stretch or arguably its most valuable player, and I've got no problem conceding the fact that generally speaking his teams were more successful that Ray Allen's Bucks and Sonics (in fact, I think I already mentioned that in an earlier post), but it's not like Payton was head and shoulders above Shawn Kemp. I think at this point we're arguing personal biases. I find the notion of a star player gravytraining a championship ring to be unbecoming. Gary Payton going to LA to feed Shaq in the post is not exactly the same as Jason Kidd nearly leading the questionable Nets to championship...twice. His role in Miami - a team few people had pegged as a clear favorite - saves him from a Mitch Richmond/Glenn Robinson-esque footnote in history. But that's my opinion. He likely had his ticket to Springfield punched when he left Seattle; all I'm saying is it may take a weaker HoF class for him to get over the threshold, and it wouldn't surprise me if Ray Allen sooner (relatively speaking).
While I can appreciate yours and KI's in depth analysis on their games as much as anyone, this is getting heavily into the area of NBA semantics as it relates to HOF eligibility. NBA rings, AS appearances, career stats (both per-game and total) and other basketball related success (FIBA championships/MVP's for foreigners, Dream Team success for Americans, College success, etc) seem to be the main criteria for voters. Allen has his ring (where he was an integral part, rather than an ancillary piece), he has the college success (3 year player at UCONN where he earned a 1st team All-American, Big East POY and 'USA Basketball's Male Athlete of the Year' in '95), he has the international success (Gold Medal with 2000 Dream Team), and he was also a 9x all-star plus will own the #1 slot for an all time cat (agreed that 3's don't hold the significance as something like assists, obviously - but being #1 is significant). Rounding out his all around impressive resume' are his 3 Sporting News "Good Guy" awards along with an NBA Sportsmanship of the Year award and you have yourself the complete package. The reason I mention that is because by all accounts he's a very highly regarded member of the basketball community, and that kind of stuff won't go unnoticed by older-generation HOF voters. By Basketball-Reference's calculations, they have him as a 91% lock to make the hall at this point, where no non-active player has reached 90% probability and not been inducted (Payton is at 85.5%, and will absolutely be inducted himself). http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob_career.html He'll be in there - first ballot.
Fuck Basketball-Reference.com. I don't recognize the credibility of any website that has Kobe Bryant ranked .0001 higher than Tim Duncan in anything. But seriously, I think that's a pretty solid formula they're using by all appearances. One thing I'd say about it, though, is that it doesn't give any credit (yet) to international play, which is understandable for the moment since it's a relatively recent phenomenon for professionals. Olympic wins for US born players are bonuses for HoF consideration but only on top of bona fide NBA succes, not in lieu of it. (In other words, Christian Laettner and Shareef Abdur-Rahim shouldn't get fitted for sportcoats just yet.) However, for foreign NBA players that have bested the US in tournaments since 1992 it should get more consideration since those national teams aren't exactly Dream Teams. That's why I think Manu Ginobili and Pau Gasol are more likely to get nods to the HoF due to a combination of NBA rings, NBA awards, and gold medals rather than their NBA careers alone.
BasketballReference has a solid HOF formula, but it shouldn't be used as an end-all, be-all. Keep in mind that Vince Carter is at 0.8662, higher than Payton (as well as Stockton, Lanier, McHale, Bing, and other no-brainers) and 64th highest among all NBA players ever. Is he going to make the Hall-of-Fame? Probably not. They have some cracks, and past about 70%, their ordering is sometimes questionable. (Stockton at a mere 70th and 0.82?) In unrelated news, the Jazz just got Al Jefferson for a $13 million trade exception. In some ways, Jefferson is worse than Boozer, and in other ways better. He might be a better compliment in their system with Millsap, as well as his shot-blocking and length, although he is a worse passer than Boozer. However, he is 4 years younger, has 3 more years on his contract, and costs a lot less money. With ninth pick Hayward looking great in the summer league, and a few West teams getting older/worse, the Jazz might be the second best team in the West outside of the Lakers.
Agreed about basketball-reference's formula. It's by no means a be all end all, but it's a great reference point. Jefferson puts up slightly hollow stats when you really look into it, and he hasn't looked the same since he had his surgery (often that can take 1 year+ of recover, so I'll hold off judgement on that for now). But that was still a necessary pickup for them, especially considering they got him for pennies on the dollar and were desperate to fill Boozer's void. As for being the best outside of the Lakers? I'm not sure about that. I would argue that the Thunder were already better than them last year (they were a blown KD foul call away from a series sweep), and OKC probably benefited the most out of any team in the west with 1 more summers growth + the addition of either Cook or Peterson (whoever earns the slot) to be the outside shooting threat off the bench to spread the floor that they desperately needed + the addition of Cole Aldrich, who is looking like an ideal fit for them in the block. I would not be entirely shocked if they came out of the west all together. In other news - The Warriors are on the cusp of inking the deal to sign Larry Ellison. http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/spor...-Short-List-for-Warriors-Bid-jw-98370659.html Which will make them the proud recipients of the 6th richest man in the world as their owner. Absolutely huge news to be able to rid the team of Cohen, Riley and hopefully Don Nelson as well. Now they just need to try to work a trade of Monta for Granger and allow Curry to fully develop.
All true, but at the same time, Jefferson is young enough to recover, and a big man who played on a crappy team with few offensive threats and lousy point guards. In Utah, he will be playing with arguably the best point guard in the NBA, and several other potent scorers to take the pressure off of him. And power forward/center types tend to thrive in Utah's system. Boozer, Okur, Kirilenko when he played PF, etc. I forgot the Thunder, and you might be right about them. They have a top 5 player to go along with a great point guard, and a wealth of other young, quality players. I grew up in the Bay Area, but eventually stopped being a Warriors fan after the amazing and consistent incompetence of Cohen. Talk of Ellison buying the team has been swirling for months now, and if it goes through, that might bring me back as a fan.
Likewise for myself, except I decided to say screw it and still hold them as "my team" and just admired/rooted what Sam Presti and OKC were doing over the past couple seasons as well. It's the best run organization since the Spurs dynasty was created (which is no mistake, as there are a lot of shared pieces in the front office), and it's been fun watching that team grow as Presti makes consistently spot on wheels 'n deals, including this summer. Warriors will have 14mil in cap space + the 4mil exception (for the Morrow deal... which hurt me, liked that kid a lot), so they'll be in fantastic shape to sign a max or two solid pieces next summer. I'd still like them to get rid of Monta for an all star caliber SF, though. Anyway I follow a few beat reporters on twitter, and although the term "sources tell me!..." now has no meaning to me post "The Decision", by all accounts he is on the brink of buying, as in tomorrow - ala Mike Miller in Miami. Miami is becoming absolutely terrifying by the way. They confirmed Haslem (for half the pay he could have gotten elsewhere), agreed to terms with Mike Miller, and just signed Big Z + Juwan Howard (dinosaurs, but serviceable). Their lineup is now: PG: Chalmers / vet min (Jason Williams?) SG: Wade SF: Lebron / Mike Miller PF: Bosh / Haslem C: Big Z / Howard They still need to use one of their vet min's for another decent PG and pull another true C to bang down low (wouldn't surprise me a bit if Shaq follows them out there), but once they do I'm having trouble imagining that team not winning at least half of the next 6-8 titles.
I really doubt Howard will play center, especially now as a slow old man. He was always a power forward who would play center only in an emergency. (He's listed at only 6' 9" and 250 pounds, and that might be a bit generous) However, based on roster talent, Miami has to be the favorites to win the title by a mile. Not only are their three best players incredible, they will also have an amazing amount of depth now. (Miller, Haslem, Ilugaskas, Chalmers etc.) They have Chalmers right now, and can easily re-sign either Alston or Arroyo, both of whom played for them last season. I think they're fine at the 1. If they sign Shaq, that will hurt the team. He is a locker room cancer, turnover and foul machine, plays zero defense, and clogs the middle up on offense. At this point, he does more harm to a team than good. They're fine at center, too. Ilugaskas is still decent, Joel Anthony is a decent shot-blocker, and they drafted Dexter Pittman, who can help out in a pinch. In fact, if you compare the Heat's role players to those on the recent Celtics' teams, or the Bulls teams in the late nineties, their roster is substantially better. No one knows how injuries, egos, and three mega-stars on the same team will gel together, but if they do, the Heat are a team that can legitimately win 3+ championships in a row.
How are the Heat able to pay other players with the current salary cap? I thought the salary cap was $58 million this upcoming year, and Lebron, Wade and Bosh are all making $16.6 million, which equals $50 million just for those 3. And there's $8 million left for 9 other players? How are they going to pay Mike Miller, Z, and everyone else?