Personally I'm undecided but there's the comparison, combining passing and rushing stats: Brady: 12-2. 255 yards, 2.21 TDs, 0.29 INT, 0.1 fumbles, 1.71 sacks per game, 7.9 ypa, 66% completion rate. Vick: 8-2. 306 yards, 2.55 TDs, 0.45 fumbles, 0.45 fumbles, 2.54 sacks per game, 8.4 ypa, 63% completion rate. As for the "Vick does it all" argument, keep in mind that Kevin Kolb went 2-2 and put up quite respectable stats in Vick's absence. Vick puts up more yards and scores more, but with more turnovers and a worse record. I think anyone who says there's a "clear case" for either is being sort of silly. He's not a "big name" (a long one, perhaps), but "The Law Firm" BenJarvus Green-Ellis is quietly having himself a very respectable year. He'll likely end up with approximately 1000 yards, 14 or so TD. As is Danny Woodhead, who gets over 5 yards a carry.
Looks like it will be a snowy Monday night game. It's been coming down steadily since around noon here in Minneapolis. It hasn't been falling especially hard though, so it probably won't be more than 6-7 inches by game time. I hope it keeps snowing throughout.
I turned that shit off when it was 31-10, as I was rooting for the Eagles to help the Packers out. I was so angry, so I didn't watch football for the rest of the afternoon. Then I turned the TV back on for the Sunday night pregame show, and when I saw the Eagles 38, Giants 31 final score I jumped off the couch and screamed, "WTF!!!" What makes this even funnier is I just finished reading this book, Mark's List http://www.theidiotboard.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=57&start=330 last week that had a bar scene it with two diehard Giants fans arguing back and forth after a devastatingly embarrassing loss to the Eagles. The two characters in the book argued so hard about what was wrong with the Giants that they almost came to blows. So I read that hilarious scene and a few days later the Giants suffer a humiliating loss to the Eagles that broke their fans' hearts. How weird is that?
The Giant loss to the 49ers in the playoffs a few years ago still was the worst. I still can't believe they lost that game. Or the playoff loss to the Vikings when they lost another onside kick. Fuck.
So Devin Hester has the record for most kick returns ever for a TD. He has a return TD every 20 returns over his career, Brian Mitchell had one every 83 touches. If Hester hits 20 TD returns, does he make it to the Hall Of Fame?
You could also make the argument that they went from 16-0 to 10-6 after losing Brady with basically the same team. That'd make Brady worth 6 wins by himself. Fairly impressive. (I hate this argument by the way.) As for the bolded part, maybe I'm crazy, but I'd consider Andy Reid a top coach in this league. A 60% winning percentage with 8 playoff appearances and 5 NFC Championship appearances all while playing in the NFC East? Not many coaches in the league can say they have done that. I'm hard pressed to think of 5 active coaches I'd take over him. That being said, Belichek is one of them. I'd give it to Brady by a small margin. I like his numbers better, I think they are equally valuable to their teams, but for me the kicker is who have they beaten? Vick's only real quality wins are against the Giants twice (impressive) and against the Colts. Brady has wins against Baltimore, @ San Diego, @ Pittsburgh, Indy, @ Chicago (who Vick lost to), and that game against the Jets where he made their defense look like a high school team.
I didn't say Andy Reid was a bad coach, I just think BB is much better. If you need confirmation look at the superbowl history. Everyone makes a big deal about five NFC championship games, am I the only one who see's a 1-4 record? Not to mention Three of the games the eagles were home favorites!! Andy Reid is an above average coach but he's no Belichek.
I always thought this was a tad unfair. It's like saying Warner made 3 super bowls, but look at his record! It's hard just getting there and most don't. Personally I've always thought Reid was awesome at preparation and below average when it came to being an in game coach. Just out of curiosity, who would you guys rather than have coach your team between Belichick and Lombardi? I think I would go with Lombardi (5 titles in 7 years), but I'll damned if Belichick doesn't have a strong argument. And not that this is a big deal, but just because I'm OCD about these things, especially when I correct them and people still get them wrong - the pats were 11-5 with Cassel, not 10-6.
If the question is who would I take today, Belichick without a question. NFL offenses and defenses are far more complex today than they have ever been and Lombardi would be out of his element. This isn't even a contest. And Mike, I find it hilarious how little respect you Philly fans have for Andy Reid. Yes Belichick is on a different level, but he's on a level that very few coaches in the history of the game have been on. Reid is still a top 5 coach in the NFL, which is no small potatoes. It's like Giants' fans calling for Tom Coughlin to be fired every other week. Does the guy make mistakes? Yeah. Are you likely to find a better coach than him if he leaves?* Probably not, so be careful what you wish for. *Bill Cowher being the exception, but having been out of the league as long as he has I'm willing to bet it takes him a year or two to adjust coming back.
I find it funny how everyone gives Philadelphia and it's fans shit because we won't settle for a guy who can't win the superbowl. Pretty much the same argument with number 5, "Philly will regret this, they have no idea what caliber of QB we are letting go, blah, blah, blah," I guess that point was proven this year. Also I'm not sure where I said I did not respect Andy Reid, if you can find that in my post please show me. It may have came out in an angry rant but I have said time and time again he is an above average coach. He's not great, if he was great we would not have lost four NFC championship games. The Kurt Warner reference is not valid he won one and I don't think anybody really was giving Arizona much of a chance in that game. Andy Reid has squandered Nfc championship games when the Eagles were the favorites countless times. He is a terrible game day coach who makes little or no changes during the course of a football game. If he had won ONEsuperbowl we would not be having this argument. The NFL measures greatness with winning and specifically winning the big game, Reid has not accomplished this despite numerous attempts. You can't argue his win loss record it's stellar. He prepares a good team and has a good overall strategy on how he approaches the game however I can't be more clear until he wins a superbowl he will not be great.
I don't think anyone is claiming Reid is great, at least not on here. He's just probably the best coach to give the eagles a chance to win the super bowl for now. As for Cowher, I really don't think he's going to need a year or 2 to adjust considering how long he used to coach. Besides, didn't he have a list of teams he'd be willing to go to? I don't think Philly was on it (and they won't let Reid go anyway). When we've seen first year coaches do so well in the past it's kind of ridiculous to act like Cowher needs all this catching up time. I can't wait for the playoffs, but I'm little dissapointed by the lack of parity in the AFC. It seems like we have the same 5-6 teams making the playoffs every year with the occasional outlier like Cincy last year. This year it will (might be) the chiefs, but then you'll probably have Colts, Ravens, Steelers, Patriots, and Jets (maybe Chargers again too). The rest of squads in that conference need to do some catching up. Walsh was great, but over Lombardi and Belichick? No way.
Yeah I was referring to the Giants when I was talking about Cowher. That was a poorly worded post. The reason I say he's going to need a year or two to adjust is that the life of a TV guy is a totally different story from being a coach where you are breathing, eating, and fucking football 24 hours a day. He's been out of that lifestyle for long enough that I believe it'll be at least a year before Personally, I give Reid a large amount of credit as far as Vick's success this year. He's built the offensive system around the guy, and I don't think he'd be putting on the show he has been with most other teams in the league. I think McNabb's shit season helps to emphasize this point. He went from an 86 career QB Rating with a 2:1 TD:INT ratio with Reid, to a 77 Rating with a 1:1 ratio under Shanahan (who is wildly overrated by the way.) Likewise, Vick went from a 76 career rating to a 103 under Reid. The maturity Vick gained during his time in prison accounts for some of that, but fact of the matter is Reid is a master at putting players in the best position to maximize the skills that they have. I don't know if you have ever said it directly, and I apologize if I implied that. I was talking more about Philly fans in general. We have a lot of them in my area and they all shit on the guy constantly.
I don't. Personally I think The Eagles and Reid got incredibly lucky with Vick. They took him more or less as a possible trade bait and ended up getting the dynamo that is on the field presently. How does Reid help Vick? The offensive line is well below average causing Vick to run for his life on plays, it's many of these busted plays that Vick turns into gains. Reid went and got James Harrison but he never set's foot on the field, he would be a huge help in establishing a real running game. The line is so bad that Brent Celek has barely been able to get receptions because he is constantly having to pick up blitzing linebackers up the A gap. I think the most glaring fact contradicting your statement is that Andy Reid had every intention of starting Kevin Kolb. We have numerous moronic fans, some of the worst in sports unfortunately. However them being fed up with Andy Reid does not make them bad or ungrateful. I am happy we had an above average coach who engineered plenty of winning seasons, however I would trade four of those NFC championship seasons for losing records if it meant we got one superbowl. Their are some players that can still be called great even though they never won the big one, Dan Marino is a glaringly obvious example of that. His stats are so impressive that to say he wasn't great is ridiculous. Coaches however don't have "stats" they have win loss records and superbowl rings. No coach can truly be called great if they never won the superbowl. Look at all the names mentioned, Walsh, Cohwer, Lombardi, Parcells, all have them have rings. I don't see Marv Levy or Dan Reeves on the list and they were damn good coaches. Having the ring doesn't make you great either, I don't know if I would call John Gruden a "great" coach. You can't be great without one, I know that. Question is can Andy Reid get over the hump? I'm not sure how much more Philly can believe in him after so many disappointments.
But you gotta give him more credit than you do about turning Vick into a real quarterback. Remember EVERYONE ALL THE TIME just said "He's the best RB in the league." "His accuracy is shit." "He shouldn't be a QB." Didn't Vick for the first 4-5 games have the best passer rating in the league? We're talking about the same league with Brady, Manning and Brees here. You gotta give him credit for that. A guy doesn't go to jail for two years, come back and luckily be able to have a skill he didn't have while he was the most electrifying player in the league and highest paid. Yeah, he had intentions of starting Kolb, but that was the right thing to do right? Kolb looked solid, and played well. He put in his time, and even in practice he couldn't have know how far Vick has evolved. I mean, I'm not saying anoint him, but you (Philly Fans) gotta stop throwing the guy under the bus as much as you do. Well its your world and you can do what you want, but jesus, a little more credit.
The NFL HOF is so bizarre in its selection process that even if he deserves it he could get passed on simply by other players/coaches being more worthy that year. This is one of the few areas where I think baseball is actually smarter: it allows as many worthy people in a given year, where football caps the number allowed in. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there no punters in the HOF? Not even Ray Guy? Come on!
Respectfully, I have to disagree with you. Walsh not only won three Super Bowls in his 10 years with the 49ers, but he left them with a winning system that allowed them to be a championship-caliber team for almost 20 years. From 1981 through 1998, the Niners won five Super Bowls, played in 10 conference championship games, and had just one losing season, and that was the strike-shortened 1982 campaign. He had the foresight necessary to make Steve Young the replacement for Joe Montana, Jerry Rice the replacement for Dwight Clark, Brent Jones the replacement for Russ Francis, and so on. George Seifert was in the best position to succeed Walsh as the head coach. Seifert was loaded with talent by the time he took over in 1989. And I seriously doubt Walsh would have lost a Super Bowl with an 18-0 team against a 13-6 team.
How did Andy Reid make Vick's passing accuracy better? What specifically did Andy Reid do to increase his QB rating? He certainly didn't put together a decent offensive line to give him more protection. You guys are taking away a lot from Michael Vick. Vick reinvented himself, Vick matured and decided to stay in the pocket, Vick kept his head up and looked for downfield targets rather than running NOT ANDY REID. All Andy Reid did was give him a roster spot, for that Vick owes him. No he didn't. He crushed a terrible Chief defense, but threw as many interceptions as he did TD's. You clearly didn't watch him play, it sounds like you arguing for the sake of arguing. Philly fans were ok with Kolb starting because McNabb was gone and we thought this was going to be our future QB, we were ready for growing pains. He did not look solid however. Practice made Vick better not Andy Reid. If any of you non Philadelphia fans wanted to make an actual point you may try and bring up that Reid used to be a QB coach and worked with Brett Favre. However he has not been exclusively working with Vick, he's a head coach. Honestly the more you guys try and give Reid credit the more you take away from a man who has made one of the biggest turn arounds in sports history!! It's 90% Vick, 10% Reid and the Eagles. Don't forget Vick barely played last year!!! If it wasn't for an injury to Kolb we may not be witnessing this mans amazing talents. I'm tired of being redundant and repeating myself, so try and read my previous posts. I have always said Reid was good but not great, and yes I will change that tune the second he brings the team to championship glory. You see Parker I only route for one team, I don't have the luxury of adopting the front running football dynasty of the moment so yes in my world, in Philly's world NFC championship games are simply not good enough. The thing you don't realize is Andy Reid knows that more than anyone.
Are you serious? You can't give him credit for stuff the 49ers did when he wasn't even the coach! That's half your argument too. Lombardi and Belichick both have better winning records than Walsh, so there's that to start. Also, Lombardi inherited a 1-10 team and turned that shit around immediately. Walsh was 2-14 his first year. The packers were 7-5 the next year and in the nfl championship the year after (that being the ONLY playoff game Lombardi ever lost). Titles might have been a little easier to get in Lombardi's day, but still, 5 in 7 years trumps anything Walsh did. As for Belichick, he won 3 in 4 years so that at least matches anything Walsh accomplished. As for losing with an 18-0 team, I don't see how you can knock Belichick for accomplishing things Walsh never did, even if he did lose that super bowl. And yes, I can see Walsh losing that game considering he lost in the divisional round of the playoffs with a 13-2 team. I have to give it to Lomardi and Belichick, both have better playoff records and regular season records. And if Belichick wins another title (highly likely), they'll both have more of those too. As for Vick, I think he deserves nearly all of the credit. Let's not pretend he doesn't have good receivers though. That always helps. And honestly, I thought Kolb was the wrong choice from the start. I've never seen that guy do anything on a consistent basis that impressed me.
I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing, but why didn't Vick do this in Atlanta? He wasn't practicing then? What made his accuracy better? Prison? Coaching had nothing to do with it? Come on. Don't get me wrong, he came back and busted his ass, heart and soul. But don't you think he was thinking "I gotta get back to where I was" not "I gotta completely change my game even though everyone thought I was great before"? Pretty sure his line was equal to or a smidgen better than it is now. Did Tony Dungy make him more accurate? Someone or something involving Andy Reid or his staff helped Vick out a lot. Because Matt Ryan pretty much has the same fucking receiving core and they're doing well. Coaching makes a difference. On another note, how the fuck is Finnegan still in the league? Also, shouldn't Austin Collie kill his QB? Throwing to a twice concussed guy in the middle of the field with three defenders and a 1% chance of any YAC? Why does it feel like concussions didn't exist before 2008? This is getting ridiculous.