I was devil's advocating a bit for the previous poster that Audrey and I were disagreeing with. Basically, on the off chance that whoever he was referencing had made a bunch of speeches condemning the football team then I can see why someone would care about her penchant for sleeping with them. Not that it might any point of hers regarding violence invalid, just that it would (as contrasted with should) tend to make her less credible. Regarding the bolded part, I know. I think there's been some sort of misunderstanding where you think I'm unaware or dismissive of the problem of college sexual violence. Which is not the case. I was simply, maybe pointlessly, seeing if there was a way to read IWantSomeJuice's post in a more favorable light by posing a hypothetical.
Boy, I missed a lot in a few pages and threads! I would totally go to that party. I feel like this should probably be in the advice thread, if you're giving out instructions. Also, is it okay if I replace the words "phone charger" with "lamp cord"? The feminism debate is getting too serious for the WDT, but Nom you missed the really important take-away from T0m's post:
Ass to ass? NSFW I'd post a GIF of the Requiem for a Dream scene here, but I'm at work, and I suspect it would be frowned upon to do a Google Image Search for the term "ass to ass" on my laptop.
Firstly, why is it important that she's "young"? Is that a justification for her logic being fallacious, or her argument being weak? Based on the fact that she's a Senior in College, we're almost certainly the same age, +/- a year or two at the most. Do I get a pass from anyone - most especially you people - if I start making bullshit assertions because I'm young? Of course not, you'll call me out on it. And rightly so. There's nothing wrong with caring about marginalised groups, but my point is that claiming that two isolated incidents of what you'd seriously struggle to classify as domestic abuse mean that the UConn athletics system is rotten to its very core and needs a serious overhaul rather than a logo design is such a giant leap of logic it literally makes my head ache. This woman's argument, plain and simple, is wrong. Yes, at its core the article attempts to do something important - shed light upon the plight of what I imagine must be a significant portion of female students in college - but that doesn't justify her then going completely off the reservation with it. At its core, the Kony 2012 campaign (remember that?) was attempting to do something important - to raise awareness of the fact that a war criminal who terrorised Uganda is still at large. Yet along the way, they tripped over their own soapbox, showed a completely cavalier disregard for facts, presented data in a misleading way and generally bumblefucked their own message so completely that at the end of it they were left with nothing but an easy target for ridicule. Which is what this lady here has done. EDIT: Also, because LOL: http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=kony
This is also puzzling. Lets leave feminism alone for a minute, and extrapolate to any form of activism. How can one support any cause and then act in the contrary to the tenets of that cause and still expect to hold credibility? I would argue that it completely reflects on your values and "feminist cred." Maybe I should have provided more information on the situation I brought up. When I was on campus, the march against violence was in response to a girl being sexually abused while she was passed out by a group of athletes. Perfectly valid and an issue that needed to be addressed, but then it gets punctuated by a drunken gangbang with athletes? Please. And I PM'd it to someone else, but the Women's Center on the UConn campus is laughably hypocritical. A guy in my fraternity, an immigrant from Ghana, was falsely accused of rape. A girl he slept with didnt go to the police, or her parents, or anyone with real authority, but the Women's Center. What did they do? They started a witch hunt against him and had him kicked out of school without trying to get to the bottom of the situation. It didnt matter. "A black guy raped an innocent white girl. Lets get him," was the marching orders. The African American Cultural Center wouldnt even come to his defense. After he got expelled, he sued and it went to court. It then came out that she made up the whole story (proven through text messages to her friend) because she felt guilty about cheating on her boyfriend. So yeah, Im a little more than skeptical when it comes to any one of their bullshit causes*. The other shoe will almost certainly always drop. *Im not saying this is a reflection on all feminism. Just this particular organization.
Hmmm. Just looked at my Big Book Of Feminist Rules and didn't see a chapter heading titled "A Integral Part Of This Movement Is Only Sleeping With People The Movement Approves Of: A Treatise On Giving Control Of Your Sex Life To Your Peers." That's probably because the idea is ludicrous and they didn't want to burden the heavy manual with any fluff content. No, but seriously: how is sleeping with a douchebag, or an athlete, or a thief, or a drug dealer, or a sketchy person, or [insert your own quality here] contrary to the tenets of feminism? Serious question. Wait, let me try and understand this: If I'm into being gang banged by athletes (and, to be frank, I suspect I'd be VERY into it if they were all attractive), I can't get upset that a bunch of athletes raped another person while she was passed out? My presence isn't welcome at protests, because I've engaged in a consensual version of an activity that, performed sans consent, victimized another person? You do see how idiotic that sounds, right? By that logic, I can't ever be welcome at a protest against rape because I've engaged in consensual rape play with an ex-boyfriend. Nice anecdote, but as long as we're sharing: What about all the women who get raped, assaulted, and the aftermath gets shoved under the rug by administrations/coaches/faculty? What about the women who can't bear to sit in class next to their rapist, day after day, and end up dropping out of school? Who end up killing themselves because of the deep injustice of watching a rapist thrive in an athletic environment that encourages his behavior? Who have to see their rapist paid millions of dollars to throw a ball on TV while they are trying to cover the out-of-pocket copay on their sexual assault therapy? What's missing from your screed against the "bullshit causes" of college feminist activism is a balanced view of the damage this culture causes for both men AND women. The other shoe HAS dropped, dude. You're just too busy looking for "bullshit" to see it.
It is somewhat hard to take an activist seriously when they're a perverted bipolar fruitcake. Oh sorry, "dehydrated".
I'm trying not to cherry pick your post, but I think there are a few very important points to extrapolate from this portion. 1- Would you agree that a gangbang, though consensual, promotes rape culture in athletes? After all, you'd be one woman, surrounded by men who are (presumably) aggressively fucking you with little real regard for your personal satisfaction. Don't get me wrong, maybe it's a half dozen gentle guys who hope to do nothing but please you and all go out for ice cream afterwards, but I'm pretty sure the first one is accurate. From what I've seen from some of the more extreme feminists, any type of rape culture is to be demonized. I understand the importance of consent. I know that this is the hinge point. However, it's still a pretty shifty platform. It sounds pretty dumb to hear someone say that they want to be raped when they want to be raped, but they don't want to be raped when they don't want to be raped. 2- Attraction. I have a hard time with this one as it relates to college campuses and the workplace, specifically as it relates to rape culture. If you're attracted to someone, and they're sexually aggressive, it's a turn on. If someone is sexually aggressive and you're not attracted to them, it's harassment and the promotion of rape culture prevents this subjugation from coming to light, and I do believe feminists have pushed this line so far that it's a black and white issue. Beria's quote "Show me the man and I'll find you the crime" comes to mind. After casually reading a couple of feminist-centric sites for a few years, I see a group of victims looking for an offense and the herd mentality is astounding. Read a few comments sections on Jezebel for a couple of minutes.
I don't think this is shifty at all. Sure, play rape might be a pretty out there kind of kink or fetish, but, it's still a consensual act between two people. On the other hand there is a dude in a dark alley grabbing a woman and raping her. Or dropping a roofie into her drink. Or fucking her when she's passed out. To my mind that's a pretty bright line.
Well, yeah. Absolutely. I'm focusing specifically on rape culture, and rape culture seems to focus on the gray areas.
We werent talking any random guy you think is a douchebag. We were talking about engaging in act with a party that is the exact subject of the activism protesting that act. If a random politician vehemently opposes gay marriage, would you argue that him getting a blowjob from a guy in a bathroom is perfectly fine and doesnt call their credibility to question? Sure you can (and should) get upset about it, but your actions weaken the narrative significantly. You want to have a serious discussion about men (in this instance athletes) raping women under the influence? Great, no one is going to argue that rape is okay. And lets be honest, the core issue is not rape, but the underlying disrespect for women. I argue that engaging in simulated rape or a gangbang is not the best way to support your argument. Yeah, and what about those women? Is anyone arguing for rape? The issue of rape is coincidental, the discussion is about activist zealotry and hypocrisy.
I'm sorry but I'd have to disagree to a point. Even engaging in a consensual situation can be contradictory, and in this girl's gangbang situation, hurtful to her cause. Part of the whole thought behind the problem with the college athletic culture is putting them on a pedestal for their physical and athletic prowess. So much so that there are strict NCAA rules against using this sexual component as a recruiting tool for prospective athletes which traditionally has been a problem. For instance at my school there was a tape leaked of a girl soccer player engaging in a consensual gang bang with a bunch of prospective football recruits (I never got to see this unfortunately). Like the flap in Colorado it was seen as one of the ways the athletic culture used sex as an enticement. Sexually objectifying women, who are consensually fucking these athletes (in college slang they are known as jersey chasers) further perpetuating the athletic culture these feminist are trying to protest. edit: I think it is part of what IWSJ is getting at with people like Ted Haggard (not a totally fair comparison because that jack off protested consensual private matters between adults). But when you are protesting something and turn around and engage in that exact same behavior you lose credibility. A lot of these things these feminist protest aren't illegal but are seen as part of the problem that leads to illegal behavior or the ignoring or covering up of illegal behavior. Gang banging a bunch of athletes you think are yummy while in one light is just a girl exploring her sexuality in another light might be adding to these athletes believing they're more special than everyone else. I also tend to agree with VanillaGorilla about the very nature of gang bangs and how they are viewed in our society. I'd be willing to bet these athletes weren't high fiving each other because they were helping a girl express herself sexually and was probably more along the lines of "Stick ya' nutz in der niggah!" and objectifying and degrading the girl in the center.
True, but in fairness, jiggly tits are good at any frame rate. When there's intelligent discourse going on, I like to make sure the depravity gets reinforced. You know, a fair and balanced WDT and what not.
I don't think her logic should get a pass. I've already said that it was pretty stupid. I just think the fact that she's young is a.)an explanation of why she's so excited and overreaching, and b.)a damn good reason not to use her ramblings as a springboard to bash feminism. She basically a strawman. Er, person. Her argument was presented poorly, and she undermined herself by bringing up the logo. No argument here. Yeah, but here's the thing; your commentary wasn't just disdainful of this woman; it was dripping with condescension for feminism as a whole, and that's what makes you dickish here. It would be like me reading a story about a rugby player being an asshole, and then using that to be smug and snarky about rugby players as a whole.
Whoa, whoa. That's a huge leap. The difference in the situations is consent. And that's not a small difference, that's the whole fucking thing. It doesn't matter what kind of sex somebody engages in, if they're consenting to it, it's an entirely different animal. You hug your girlfriend, right? You probably even hold her hand from time to time; does that give random people on the bus the right to grope you or grab your hand? That's the whole problem though, is that women are forced into the situation where they have to chose between expressing their sexuality and being taken intellectually seriously. You're basically dancing around the exact problem that so many people are railing against. This woman wasn't in the gangbang yelling, "THIS IS HOW I'M GONNA SHOW PEOPLE RAPE CULTURE IS WRONG", she was just having sex. The fact that her consensual choices are an indictment of her here is fucked up. That's the whole problem, right there.
Thank you for succinctly summarizing the debate on feminism. I was tired of reading As of today I am a TV free household. I think the length of time that I will be able to go without TV is directly proportional to how nice the weather is.