Tinker v. Des Moines is, as far as I know, the authority on what First Amendment rights kids have in public schools. The relevant part: So basically, the kids do have the right to express their viewpoint with their clothing, even if it is some anti-Mexican view because of Cinco de Mayo, unless the administrators can justify censoring because the "expression" will cause a disruption. Now in this case, based on what the article said about the Mexican students' reactions to the uber-patriotic attire, and with kuhjäger and KIMaster's descriptions of how gang violence may factor in, I think the administrators were perfectly justified, at least legally, to ask the kids to censor themselves.
I don't understand the tax argument. Wouldn't this effect be partially or completely canceled out by the fact that they don't collect any transfer payments, such as unemployment or welfare? Most illegal immigrants are poor. Very poor. And most people in their income bracket pay negative taxes (that is, they receive more in direct government funds than they contribute). So wouldn't illegal immigrants therefore be less of a tax burden that legal residents with similar incomes? That is, if they paid taxes, wouldn't they end up costing the state even more than they already do?
I think that you also have to take into account that law enforcement in California is really focusing on generating revenue more than ever due their financial ruin. They are more likely to go after the tax-paying guy with cash that doesn't have a front plate on his car than deal with the immigration issues that may take up resources, not be a serious or dangerous issue, but not generate revenue.
As I understand it, the entire reasoning of the school officials was based around the idea that they might create disruption and violence. You can say that the school is being excessively paranoid and applying the exception in Tinker too widely (it's fairly ambiguous. How far does one have to go before its a legitimate threat to school discipline and operation?), but it's not a clear-cut, black-and-white violation. Or non-violation, for that matter. The Constitution can be annoying like that.
As a matter of fact, some of them DO collect welfare or at least Social Security. (Yes, it makes no sense...welcome to California) And that isn't counting the medical care, schooling, and other public services they receive. What? How does the second statement (illegals giving some money back to the state would cost the state more (?!)) follow from the first (government pays illegals far more than they give back)? That's very likely the case. I also remember reading that certain laws prohibit certain cops from questioning the legality of an immigrant, and even when they can, deporting them is one giant headache, and full of red tape. So mostly they don't bother them.
I think everyone can agree that it's better to err on the side of caution in cases like this. Being excessively paranoid, when in the recent past we've had multiple school shootings, is the way to play. Yes, there is a lot of excess fear in regards to school violence but it's been justified and certainly not something we want to see again. This story would be a lot different if the school officials let the kids wear the shirts and ended up with a mouth full of concrete at the end of the day (hypothetically, of course). I don't have kids but I certainly wouldn't want them to get caught, accidentally of course, as my children will be perfect angels; in some sort of national pride royal rumble.
As an outsider ( a non-American), this is my point of view. I can imagine someone getting into trouble for wearing an American flag in a country like Iran, but getting into trouble for displaying the American flag in America? I think it's pretty simple, we're all too scared and we don't want to offend minorities. I believe if someone wants to wear a shirt which portrays his political believes, he should be allowed to, so if someone wants to be a douche and go around with a Che guevara t-shirt or a nazi t-shirt, he should be allowed, understandably, this might be controversial, however why is it that being proud of your nation's flag can be considered wrong? There is no rational way in which one can argue that these people acted out of line by wearing an American flag, even if it is Mexico's biggest holiday/national day.
Are you fucking retarded? They wore the god damn flag to be a douche. If they were just wearing it, that is one thing. But they did it with the intention of creating a ruckas. Because you go to school to learn (and not make political statements) they made them remove them/go home because it was creating a ruckas.
So I take it that none of the Mexican students had Mexican flags with them? Why would they create a ruckus? Is an American flag offensive to Mexicans on a Mexican holiday? If they do find it offensive, than what?
If they collect transfer payments, my point doesn't hold. Also, I was referring strictly to actual cash payments. My point was, assuming that they didn't collect money, illegals paid more net taxes than comparable legals (since 0 is greater than a negative number). But that's a moot point if they're somehow able to collect government unemployment and/or welfare.
That's a great point. What if I decided that I didn't like the Mexican flag? Should the students wearing those be forced to take them off? No, and I would be called a racist for suggesting so. Why IN THE FUCK should the American flag ever be offensive in America? High School is filled with Drama every fucking day. Sure this might have "disrupted the learning environment" but so do a million fucking other things. Such as who the slut cheerleader fucked Saturday night, whether the principal has herpes, or who's spread crabs around the school. It's the way it goes.
You cant control a lot of the stupid shit you mentioned in your post. But you can control what kids wear. If a t-shirt with a mexican flag caused a distraction in class, then hell yes thye should take them off. I don't think this thread was about the flag being offensive. I was simply saying that school has a right to control the learning environment, even if that means turning shirts with an American flag on them inside out.
I highly doubt that it was just the fact of wearing the flag on a shirt that got them sent home. Everyone is probably trying to make that the case, because it makes the story that much more inflammatory. I'd be willing to bet that it was the students acting like fucktards that got them sent home, and it just so happened that they were the ones wearing the shirts. Correlation does not mean causation.
Well, I think Beefy Phil is right. It's been seven pages and I've said everything I'm going to say. No one is going to change anyone's mind. I'm tapping out of this one for good.
As someone who lives in the town involved and who knows (albeit peripherally) the people involved, the reason they were sent home was the fact that they were wearing flags, as their behavior was not antagonistic beyond wearing the shirts on a day on a 'Mexican Heritage Day'. Technically, I don't have a problem with the students being sent home. I used to live within two miles of the school in question, and I guarantee that the number one concern in the administrator's mind was that these kids were going to get the fuck beaten out of them, and sending them home and threatening them with suspension is a legitimate response to their refusal to obey the principal at the school they attend. The problem is that this isn't really about wearing American flags. The larger issue is immigration, specifically the fact that illegal immigrants (and yes illegal is the right word. The next time I see someone wearing a 'No human is illegal' bumber sticker/etc I'm gonna lose it. The 'rightness' of the law doesn't change the fact that breaking it is illegal), are increasing in a way that puts a large economic and more importantly social strain on the government and people here. For a variety of reasons, integration of illegal immigrants into larger society is very poor, leading to a group/clan mentality that creates a lot of social problems. In addition to further retarding larger integration, it creates an us vs. them mentality in the other side of the debate. When I can reasonable expect the average person in certain places of my area to more reliably speak Spanish than English, this upsets people. The solution: deal with illegal immigration, ideally with the goal of regulating the amount of people coming in so as to avoid serious economic strain. Also we have to create programs and an environment that help immigrants by increasing their ability to function in larger American society as opposed to further increasing group mentality.
The main argument I see here is that the school officials were simply trying to keep the students from getting rowdy with each other. Asking them to change shirts and subsequently sending them home for not doing so helped to create an environment that was conducive to learning because it kept potential violence away. I'd like to make a point here. If your school is such a powder keg of racial sentiment on both sides*, I don't think you have an environment that's conducive to learning in the first place. Oh, and they're students. They shouldn't have the same free speech protection as your adult citizen. That being said, all the involved parties in this story made bad decisions, including the school officials. *The flag wearers were obviously being stupid and trying to provoke shit. Some Mexican-Americans are likely to react with violence because of this insignificant event. Sounds like a lovely school with a great learning environment.
Honestly California can't exist. We are an anomaly. We are so in the fucking whole it isn't even funny. But what they do is just hose us honest Joes and Joses, and that is where a lot of anger A lot of people look at this as a taxes collected/paid issue ie. they are paid under the table, or in some cases they provide a false SSN (in which case they are contributing tax income, although through another illegal act) If you drive through any heavily Hispanic area you will notice a signs all over the place saying "Enviaje dinero a Mexico" (Send money to Mexico). A solid portion of their income is diverted directly to Mexico to support their families there. (Or pay off the Coyotes holding their relatives hostage) However infrastructure is a major issue in dealing with the issue of illegal immigration. The town that I work in now that I just recently stopped residing in is a perfect example. As you drive in, the sign reads that there are under 50,000 residents. However estimates put the number much closer to the 60+ mark, if not above. The overcrowding in the city is noticeable. I lived in a city twice this size, with a sizable tourist population at any given time, and it was never this crowded. Because of fear of the government, illegal immigrants avoid being counted on the census. Despite all the assurances, they will flat out refuse fill out their forms, which of course means that there isn't the population to determine an accurate level of public funding to provide the city. The roads here are crumbling because of the massive amounts of traffic, and there isn't the money to fix it. The number of expired registrations (and fake registration stickers) I see cruising around this town is phenomenal. That tax money isn't going to the state to help fix roads. (Don't get me started on the lack of insurance. I was paying exorbitant fees) In this area, (and all over the country) the schools are overcrowded, with massive class sizes. Because every kid is guaranteed an education, children of illegals can not be turned away, but again, there is no accurate population count to give schools extra federal funding. In addition, there are multiple extended families living on one property in this city with large numbers of children going to the schools, but only family worth of property taxes (which is a massive source of income for schools here in California.) This prevents schools from being able to provide smaller classrooms This county has two rather small hospitals. Neither of them have a decent trauma center. The only one is over in San Jose, and they have to be flown there. And most reports of gang violence in this county end in: He/she was flown to a trauma center in San Jose". Well, guess who is footing the bill for that? I don't think the Nortenos have a health care plan. Finally, there is the white flight issue. We have to face it. White people who are middle to upper middle class are scared of just about anyone with a tan. When a city rapidly changes demographics to a poorer one, wealthier middle class leave, taking away a major tax base. Now, what I am describing is this town, and the other towns in this county and the north end of Monterey County below me. I can't ascribe this to the entire state, but I think that it is a pretty good estimate of the situation in the rest of California.