But Seriously...

Sure. When someone says "It is the worst religion in existence and its practices need to be reigned in. HARD." the logical conclusion, at least to me, is that this person thinks all practicing Muslims are bad.

 

To me, that reads like that person thinks not all religious teachings are equally benign, and considers one to be particularly violent. I'll do some inferring of my own and say that person has probably also seen polls from countries where that religion's justice system (something the other religions don't even have, by the way) is enforced, and found an alarming percentage of people in favour of some fucked up things (see my last post on Indonesia for the light version). Even if my inference is wrong, that person still hasn't even given an opinion on whether all practitioners of that religion are good or bad.

Since you and your co-arguers are mostly ignoring my other points, lemme ask: Do you think all religions and their teachings are equally benign?

 

Are you sure about that? Because I'm pretty sure that "the other religions" have justice systems, which explains a lot about - say - the justice system you currently live in. To give another example, this.

 

ISIS members are Sunni, not Shia. This is basically Catholics vs. Protestants, just in the Middle East and not Ireland.

Yeah, I picked the WBC because they're one of the most highly visible examples of Christian extremism. My point wasn't about the numbers. My point was that the ideologies of both groups amounts to the same thing (ie, it's bad and they should stop adhering to it).

I cannot understand how so many of you think it's okay to keep the nasty ol' foreigners out of America. Never mind the fact that the goddamn Statue of Liberty has the words "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" Turning away refugees out of some nebulous fear that someone might do something is about an un-American as it gets.

It's fine that you read into something differently than I did. While I don't necessarily agree with the things you've inferred, I can at least understand why and how you made it. Also, I'm not arguing in tandem with anybody else.

As for your question, obviously, the answer is no, but that doesn't necessarily mean some religion teachings aren't all bad. I'm quite fond of "do unto others" and "judge not lest ye be judged".

 

Islam is a religion that Cat Stevens, the singer who recorded "Peace Train" and "Wild World", personally and publicly call for the death of Salman Rushdie for "The Satanic Verses". The Fatwah issued on Rushdie has an exipracy of infinite, since the lunatic cleric who issued it can't take it back on account of that particular Ayatollah being dead.

Every religion has extremists, every religion has blind spots. But let's not be idiotic enough to create a fake and balanced argument by saying Islam is no worse than the others--- it IS worse-- in numbers, in behaviour, in its written rules. Christians are not publicly throwing blindfolded teens off roofs, decapitating them or hanging them from construction cranes. Buddhists do not throw molecular acid in the face of their own wife or cut her nose and ears off because she talked to another man without permission. Jews do not force their eleven-year-old daughter into marriage. Sihks are a religion cut from warrior's blood yet they allow total tolerance and let you worship your chosen religion even in the central shrine of their golden temple, yet people fear them because they wear turbans.

And also, no religion has violence between its own factions like Islam. Sunnis and Shiites fucking HATE each other, a centuries-old debate on who the proper heir to prophet should be since he had no sons. They have killed each other countlessly over this, I don't think I've seen an after-church parking lot brawl between Anglicans and Uniteds.

This is the modern state of superstition: no matter what religion you may be, one isn't worse it's OVERWHELMINGLY worse. It took 19 of them to knock down the WTC and put a hole in the Pentagon: Young men WILLING to die while the assholes who planned it all kicked back and laughed while watching it on TV. That's the frightening thing about fundamentalist Islsm: it has zero grip on reality while having absolute zero tolerance for the quality of life: its members believe that they are in a constant cosmic battle that transcends reality and consciousness and only THEY are right-- making the rest of us infidels, and infidels have two path options in Islam: you join, or you must be killed.

 

Dude, the only difference between Islam and Christianity is the period of time when these atrocities were/are being committed and the news coverage afforded. Christians may not be kicking each other's asses in parking lots, but Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland have been going round and round since Martin Luther nailed a paper to a door. Catholics routinely burned people at the stake for witchcraft. In fact, if you even believed in the same stuff as Catholics, but in a different way, you either converted, or were tortured to death. Homosexuals and masturbators were routinely stoned to death. Looking for something more modern? How about abortion clinic bombers or the KKK? Pogroms?

Persecution based on what religion you may or may not subscribe to has been around since the dawn of civilization. The only reason why it's a big deal now is because Fox News and CNN didn't exist to broadcast the horrible shit people had been doing to each other.

 

Do you think you might want to walk yourself back on this statement? Because I'm pretty sure Protestants and Catholics have had a grand old time killing each other for the last several hundred years. Or, have a look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectarian_violence#Among_Christians and see that the most recent entries talk about the Rwandan and Yugoslavian genocides. What we often consider political conflicts within the West have, as their root, a sectarian divide. Hell, look at the division between French and English Canada - you don't seriouly think it's a coincidence that it was, until recently, a very stark Catholic and Protestant divide between French and English, do you?

 

Given the recent history of problems that arose in other western countries allowing large numbers of Muslims in, how exactly do you think it's going to be different this time?

A couple other famous quotes that are applicable here:

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results."

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

 

Bringing up shit that happened centuries ago is not an arguement. I'm concerned with what is happening right now-- while WE are alive. Abortion clinic bombers and the KKK are not even a blip on the radar compared to Islam atrocities. Homegrown bad shit is always relevant in your country but if something like a 60-death car bomb happened in America it would be in the news for months, the entire country would lose its collective shit and the constitution would be suspended to catch the perps involved. That happens every day in the Middle East and many of them view it as collateral damage to appease their imaginary friend.



What's happened centuries ago is the past-- those people are LONG dead. Right now, while we are still living, youu have over a hundred and fifty million people who want every major city in America turned into a debris field.

Worry about them. Worry about the fact they want weapons like suitcase nukes. They hate you, and they WANT to kill you and your family. Until Islam starts taking democratic approach to reigning in the fuckheads that kill in its name, it can't be trusted as a whole. Why would anybody trust any demographic in which one out of every seven members want you dead?

The way these people lose their shit if speak ill of their beliefs in any way is repulsively selfish and hypocritical. They can say what they want about you, you cannot say anything in return. Period. Observe this "logic" in action:



...they knew the film would offend them, yet they showed up anyway to create complete chaos and act like assholes. The cops (who stood their ground like badasses) were there because they KNEW that would happen, and were 100% right in their prediction.

 

That's just it, folks may not be explicitly saying that we shouldn't let Muslims into the country, but there is a lot of hand wringing about what happened to other countries that let Muslims in and the stats about what percent are violent and then talking about how big a number that is, as if that even has any meaning given we aren't letting every single Muslim into the country. That's why I asked whether they were saying that we shouldn't let any Muslims in.

What is it YOU would do in this scenario? That's what I was asking before, because there is the strong implication that you would say no to all of them. I'll tell you what my answer would be, but I will modify the example. They aren't all fighting cocks, there is a mix of cocks from the same farm that are just your ordinary run of the mill cocks but it is known that maybe one or two were used for fighting. I would examine and observe each and every one until I felt reasonably sure that I've chosen the non-murdery ones and then I would put them with my flock, continuing to keep an eye on them. (did I say cocks enough? I don't think I said cocks enough)

That's what we've been doing for generations with foreigners who come to our country short or long term. I don't understand this mindset that we are just opening up a huge gate and waving the entire world in with a smile and a wink.

 

The problem is, even the director of the FBI says we can't properly vet the refugees: http://dailycaller.com/2015/10/21/f...et-all-syrian-refugees-for-terror-ties-video/

Honestly, I'd love to be wrong on this one...we let refugees in and nothing happens, no one gets harmed and I look like a fool. I can live with that.

Hundreds/Thousands of lives damaged/lost if the people wanting to allow them in under the current system are wrong. Can you live with that?

 

A lot of Right-leaning people were upset in Canada about letting in 25,000 refugees. We have a whole bunch here in town, right now. The fact they don't share is that Canafa lets in much more that that, every year, since the late 90's. People integrate here because they really like it here. America, too. Because we'll crack down HARD if they try an "honour crime".

 

I personally believe that no matter which book about the sky wizard you adhere to that nobody is 100% innocent. Some, such as true believers in Islam are less innocent than others. In 15 seconds I can produce a list of direct quotes from their sky wizard telling them to kill non-believers, those statements are incongruent with anyone trying to claim it to be THE or even A religion of peace. Let me give you a brief example: I was standing on the tarmac of a new LZ/Hangar I was building for a government agency in Baghdad, standing next to one of the QC technicians, Zayneb. She was adamant that her goal was to come to America, the land of opportunity as she was a Civil Engineer and wanted to be an Engineer in America. That day there was a huge VBIED at the gate of one of the other compounds nearby that created a huge mushroom cloud. She and a lot of the other Muslims on the site began screaming and cheering, ecstatic that someone had managed to bomb one of the American compounds. Do you see the disconnect here?

This is my problem with immigration. They want to come here but they also hate us. They have also shown themselves less likely to integrate into our society or just plain less compatible with our society. They arrive with the expectation that they will bring their customs to a new country with it's own customs and that not only will we be cool with everything they want to do but will try to force their ways on us. There is a reason they left the stinking shithole they came from but they aren't smart enough to figure it out.

Also, let's not pretend that blocking immigration from certain parts of the world hasn't happened before. Jimmy Carter did it, during the time that the Statue of Liberty was erected we were blocking immigration from Eastern Europe....this isn't something new or unheard of, this is an actual public safety concern that should be addressed and resolved before we throw open the gates.

 

You're painting with very broad strokes here. Speaking purely from recent anecdotal experience, the young Syrian woman and her one remaining child that my wife and I are sponsoring right now seem very content with their situation right now, which is slowly integrating into our country while they learn the language and secure themselves financially. I spend almost an hour with that kid everyday working on his English. Kid's only six and he's putting in a tremendous effort. So is his mother, who's working at a cleaning company I got her hooked up with, and who pays her room and board by babysitting my kids when needed.

Now, I understand what you're saying, and I certainly don't doubt that any number of immigrants aren't fans of our culture and would rather do their own thing, but why shouldn't they? And that's an honest question. I'm not a big picture guy, never have been, so please enlighten me.

 

What is the acceptable number of lost/ruined lives in your opinion? Remember that for every rape/assault/terrorist attack the victims include family, friends, and the local community devastated by the crime also.

My family came from Ireland in the 1890's (They went to Canada.) They were Protestants escaping a country involved in a deep conflict. They passed on their fear and hatred of Catholics to their children. Who then passed on the same fear and hatred to their children. It wasn't until my generation that some of us rebellious types in the family said "That's fucking ludicrous."

Like I said, I would love nothing more then to be wrong about allowing refugees into this country. If I'm wrong, I'm an alarmist idiot. If you're wrong, innocent people will have their lives turned upside down and ruined. Is it really worth the very real possibility of destroying other people's lives?

 

Let me start by saying that I applaud you for doing what you are doing. You are one of the very few who support bringing the refugees to this country who will do anything more than spout empty words about the topic.

With that said, to answer your second part: There are limits in our culture like any other; behaviors that are acceptable here that are not there and vice versa. Their culture, from my decade spent in that region of the world, has very unique behavior that most people regardless of their political leaning would not condone and find outright revolting. You are aware of most of them: honor killings, killing homosexuals, female genital mutilation (some areas of Africa mostly), widespread pedophilia, general lack of human rights for women.....those are the major ones most people think of immediately. As with every group of immigrants that come here, they stay, for the most part, in tight-knit communities that keep to themselves for the most part. In more instances than are acceptable, they wish to or actually do continue these customs. This is the important part here: there are no instances whatsoever where any of these behaviors are acceptable in our society and for anyone to turn a blind eye to this due to culture relativism is awful.

In terms of following their religion; they worship as is their right to do so or not do so but just because they are in the West now doesn't change or sanitize the teachings of their sky wizard. It is still steeped in violence and hatred....we have enough of that here already, why import more? I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, I am just going by what my experience has showed me and it probably appears biased to those whose only true contact with Islamic culture has been from friends who live and integrated here in America or from Huffington Post articles. For those who feel different based on the sum of their experiences, then by all means take the moral high ground, it just looks like the equivalent of trying to keep a rattlesnake as a pet to me.

 

They either roll the dice in their own countries, or we roll the dice and take them in. Lives can be ruined either way. I think their chances are far better here with us (Canada), and I'm willing to take the risk that some are going to cause some damage.

I understand your concerns, and they are most definitely valid, but we also produce an alarming number of dangerous people within our own borders, many of which are only subject to a bare minimum of screening. For example, the man who hit and killed my sister certainly wasn't subject to a breathalyzer until well after he'd killed her. This was a middle-class man with a family of his own, reasonably well-educated, and with no criminal record to speak of. He wrecked the lives of my parents, and he was homegrown.

What I'm trying to say, I guess, is that I don't want to be held hostage by the fear of what might happen, what could happen.

 

Fair points all around, and I agree that Islam and it's commonplace practices and traditions are revolting. That being said, any and all of the examples you listed are illegal in Canada, and probably the United States, are they not? Now, that obviously won't deter everyone, but if you're caught performing any of those acts you get punished. Also, you have to keep in mind that not everyone who follows Islam can be labelled a fanatic. As with Catholicism, Judaism, and Christianity (the big three I am most familiar with), there are those who take it to extremes, practicing their teachings to the letter, but there are also those who cherry pick the kinder and softer portions of their faith, love thy neighbor and the like.

Is there merit to the thought, and in that same vein, the hope, that by coming to live in a place like Canada, that one could learn from an arguably far less hostile environment? I know I'm reaching here, but I have great difficulty in believing that change, even in something as steadfast as religion, is impossible and not worth attempting.

 

First and foremost, I also applaud you for taking in a mother and child.

I have absolutely no problem with taking in women and children. My problem is sometimes the children look like this purported 14 year old let into Europe:



I would love it if we could throw the gates open wide and let refugees from shit hole countries in. I'm sure there are a great deal of them simply seeking to escape the hell they are living in currently. Unfortunately we can't because the same people that make those countries a living hell are trying to get in here by hook or by crook to mess our country up as bad as theirs.

Yes, we do have an almost overwhelming number of bad people in our country that are from here already, but that's not an excuse to let in possibly more. This is anecdotal, but I lived outside of Memphis when Katrina hit. Memphis is widely regarded as a violent shit hole.

After Katrina, a number of refugees from the harder hit areas of Katrina were put up in Memphis. Guess what happened? A horrible shit hole became an even more violent shit hole. Just because horrible people are already in place doesn't mean that interjecting even more possibly horrible people is going to improve the situation