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But Seriously...

Discussion in 'Permanent Threads' started by Juice, Jun 19, 2015.

  1. Kubla Kahn

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    Decorum has been dead in politics for some time.

    This is the only area I'd feel 100 a-ok with republicans sand bagging the president. The ability to appoint a supreme court justice and immigration are the single two highest impact issues we face as a country. Neither of which I am comfortable having someone on the liberal spectrum making choices on. We are in an era of extreme political tribalism. I want my team to win. Fuck it.
     
  2. D26

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    Good to see objectivity in tact around here.
     
  3. Rush-O-Matic

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    You guys are hilarious if you think the make up of the Supreme Court matters to voters. Donald Freaking Trump is the leading presidential candidate right now. Donald Trump. For President. And, at least half the people (probably more) who will vote for president on election day couldn't name more than 2 or 3 members of the court.
     
  4. goodlife23

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    I'll ignore the fact that you would choose Trump out of those three and instead focus on the next thing you said. Do you really feel that taxes are just charity? When you pay property taxes, do you look it at paying charity for those kids you never met to be able to go to school and think "damn freeloaders?"

    Are social security and medicare taxes you pay considered charity? Because that's the type of taxes Sanders is proposing, unless you are in the top tier of income.

    I looked closely at Sanders health care plan. When I added up all the numbers, assuming that the employer tax would get passed onto me (which i think many analysts are overstating because companies would likely save that money by not having to pay insurance premiums), I'd be paying somewhat more than i currently pay in employer-provided insurance premiums. But....that's assuming I never need to use my insurance in a given year. I have a high deductible and copay, meaning if I meet it in a given year, then I'd be paying more than if there was universal healthcare. And that's not even taking into account a thing called "balance billing." I had an emergency room visit a year back and the bill for an mri and a hospital room (not an overnight stay) was $7,500. My insurance told the hospital they'd only pay $5,000. So the hospital billed me the remainder. Overall, I'm actually fine to pay a little more in taxes to have peace of mind that if I ever get sick, I won't get bankrupt paying for it. And I'll feel pretty good that no one else would ever be in a similar situation.

    I don't think people realize how out of control healthcare costs are getting, and our premiums and copays are rising far greater than inflation. Universal health care works. It has been proven time and time again in other countries. People's taxes would go up to pay for it, and yes, probably a not-insignificant number of people would pay more than they re currently paying. But it is in all of our best interests long-term.

    I'd love to hear from the small business owners who pay insurance for their employees. Under Sanders' plan, you'd pay 6.8% payroll taxes for each employee. Does this sound better or worse for you financially?
     
  5. ODEN

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    I actually do. I max out the contribution every year and I know it won't be there for me in 30 years when I retire (I also know, even if it was there, I would be publicly shamed for trying to claim it too even though I paid for it). I have posted this before but even the Government knows they are going to go bust, so to me, it is charity at this point.

    https://www.ssa.gov/oact/trsum/ MAKE SURE YOU READ THE LAST SENTENCE OF THE CONCLUSION

    Lemme preface this by saying I don't have a good answer to the healthcare problem but here are a couple of thoughts here; it sounds great having free public healthcare but look at the systems in place in Canada and the UK as examples. People waiting months for treatment? Even in emergent circumstances? I grew up in a small town with a large healthcare system that was close to the Canadian border. There were wealthy Canadians that traveled with ill relatives to the hospitals to pay cash for dialysis, scans, surgeries, you name it. People desperate for care that would save their lives, coming from a country with free healthcare?

    Another thing to think about: Why do people have private health insurance in Canada and the UK if the NHS is so great? Why do you need to pay for health insurance in a country like this?

    I look to the VA system for a glimpse as to what an NHS-style system would resemble in America and try to imagine that system scaled up to suit 300+ million people. Not many vets I talk to who are altogether pleased with the system we have, apparently that system is overwhelmed these days. I also think about how expensive our Government is right now and how expensive healthcare is now and try to imagine how expensive healthcare will be when you add Government bureaucracy to it.

    Finally, if I'm funding it, and I'm sorry to say this, but I'm not signing up to wait in the same line for treatment with people who don't produce.

    [​IMG]
     
    #2425 ODEN, Feb 14, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2016
  6. CharlesJohnson

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    Donald Trump does not control the entire electorate, maybe 1/6. There a ton of liberals and moderates out there who do not vote regularly, dislike obstruction, and do not like Trump. Everything will come into play this election. However, you have a point when Congress has a 13% approval rating and a 96% reelection rate. Nothing very well may matter, but it is interesting to talk about. Same thing when someone says, "Trump says he will not do X." How the hell can you trust anything out of his mouth. If he manages to lose, I really can't see him being gracious in the slightest. Nobody has any idea where this shit is going.
     
  7. Nettdata

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    In my experience, neither myself or anyone I know has had to wait excessively long for "emergent care". I was operated on within 12 hours of diagnosing a completely fucked up knee and nerve damage from a bad rugby game, neighbours have been in for surgery within 24 hours of visiting the emergency room, and my sister was under the knife within 60 minutes of calling the ambulance for an appendix.

    Sure, some other things that aren't life threatening take a while, primarily because the "emergency cases" take precedence, so some things that may be painful but not life threatening (such as hip/knee replacements) and other elective surgeries take a while.

    You will always find the occasion where shit didn't go as it should have, but overall I'd say I much rather have my country's health care system than yours.

    I'm not saying that our health system isn't under a huge load, but it's not some 3rd world system either.

    Probably the biggest problem are people who abuse the emergency room for situations that clearly aren't an emergency. They wait forever, because it's nothing important. The real emergencies get handled fairly quickly, without causing bankruptcy.
     
  8. goodlife23

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    Here's a decent article that goes about debunking the long wait time myths. http://www.aarp.org/politics-society/government-elections/info-03-2012/myths-canada-health-care.html

    And another: http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci_12523427

    One of the best points made in the link above is that in America, we have socialized insurance in Medicare, which doesn't have these issues with wait times. Which proves that socialized healthcare doesn't equal long wait times. The issue it appears with Canada's system is not enough money being put into the system. Also, the Commonwealth Fund did a study that found that while the U.S had better wait times than Canada and Norway, the wait times were greater than every other country in the study. Also, most other countries were better able to deliver same day or next day appointments (Canada was worst).

    Regarding social security, it is not doomed. The CBO says the trust fund can fully pay out benefits until 2038, and even after then can pay up to 81%. https://www.cbo.gov/publication/41139?index=12376

    We would only need to do one of several reasonable things to bring it back into solvency. Matt Bruenig has a great breakdown of this whole issue: http://mattbruenig.com/2011/08/16/the-myth-of-social-security-insolvency/

    As far as your last comment, I respectfully disagree. I have no problem waiting in line with those people who don't produce, you know, like children, the elderly and the disabled.
     
  9. Gravy

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    This is abhorrent. You're not better than people because you make more money than they do.
     
  10. toytoy88

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    It would be. If he said that, which he didn't.

    He said people that don't produce. And I agree. If I'm footing the bill, I should get preference over people that rely completely on the government for their existence instead of actually even attempting to be a productive member of society.
     
  11. Frebis

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    I legitamtely get why people want to be rich. They get nice things. However getting a better car or going on a nice vacation are different than getting medical care. Everyone should have the right to live a healthy life.
     
  12. ODEN

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    I'm not putting myself ahead of the elderly, the young or the disabled; as a matter of fact they should be seen first for those specific reasons. It is the able bodied adults who don't produce that I am referring to: the assholes who keep shitting out kids, the idiots who claim disability (falsely) and their attorneys who enable them, the downright lazy and those who think that the jobs that fit their non-existent skill sets are beneath them. Hell, I would even prefer to give free medical treatment to illegals who come here and produce MORE than I would to the able bodied non-producing people who are natural born citizens. This is a small world with more and more people in it, in my opinion, you don't get to not be productive if you are going to take from the system.
     
  13. ODEN

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    Probably not worded well but this was an honest question: What is the deal with private health insurance? What is the purpose of it in countries with free healthcare? I don't understand that.
     
  14. Nettdata

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    "Free" healthcare is very rarely the best healthcare. If you are a professional athlete, you want to hit up the top orthopaedic surgeon that money can buy, not the guy who placed halfway in his class. Sure, the "free" guy will fix your problem adequately, and will more than likely be good enough for your typical soccer mom, but if you want that "get me back in the NHL next season" quality, then you pay for it.

    Likewise, "free" healthcare is a FIFO queue; first in, first out. If you want to jump to the head of the line and get that replacement hip done sooner than the 12 month waiting period, then go to a private clinic and get it done in days, not months, but you pay for it.
     
  15. Gravy

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    Fuck it, just like you said, you don't get to not be productive if you are going to take from the system. Why keep old people alive? Hell, if shit gets really out of hand, and we start running out of food, we can even just eat the children. A smart Irish dude suggested that way back when.
     
  16. ODEN

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    Well, it was merely a modest proposal.

    You can take what I say to any extreme that suits you but you are connecting dots that weren't there.
     
  17. Gravy

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    I'm really just curious as to how you would prove people are lazy or not.

    Scratch that. I'm not curious. I regret contributing to this nonsense entirely. Have a good night.
     
    #2437 Gravy, Feb 15, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2016
  18. ODEN

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    http://www.wmtw.com/politics/maine-sees-dramatic-drop-in-ablebodied-adults-on-food-stamps/32300444

    This Governor is an idiot. For the most part he fits in Trumps mold.

    But.

    He is doing something right. He is decreasing Maine's welfare rolls, the lazy and the cheats. He is forcing these people to take part in a system that teaches them actual skills, finds them a job or makes them volunteer their time. It makes them meet weekly with counselors to check on job-hunting progress which forces people working under the table to leave the welfare rolls because their actual job won't allow that type of commitment.

    He has other initiatives like blocking use of EBT cards at casinos and liquor stores as well. You would think people would see this as a good thing but he is treated like the antichrist because of it by the media.
     
  19. Trakiel

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    While you say children, the elderly, and the disabled should get care with your first sentence, you then go on to state that if it means there'll be freeloaders to you're willing to let the "deserving" you named go without care in order to prevent freeloaders. So what ratio of freeloaders is acceptable to you? 1:10? 1:100? Or are you so absolutist in your sentiment that you'd deny healthcare to thousands of children, disabled, and elderly citizens in order to prevent even a single freeloader from abusing the system?

    I can understand your sentiment, but I'm also going to assume you're a reasonable person.
     
  20. Nettdata

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    I fully agree with you that the slack and idle pieces of shit that take advantage of the system should be kicked off the system, but the problem I have is that I can't see any reasonable way of doing that effectively.

    It would, of course, have to be on a case-by-case basis, but such a process would be rife with stupidity and corruption in no time, I'd imagine.