But Seriously...

It's the opposite. Algebra is necessarily true, even though there are no exact algebraic shapes in the universe. The laws of mathematics are true whether the real world conforms to them or not. Similarly, in economics, the law of supply and demand is true, even if reality doesn't always conform to it because of other factors. A mathematical model can make an algebraic shape easily, or a supply and demand scenario. But a mathematical model can only approximate a complex phenomenon like a galaxy. It's even more difficult in economics because each factor is itself too complex to model.

I'm happy to hold views rejected by a majority of economists because the majority consensus in economics has been so often wrong, and often disastrously.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-fifth-of-all-graduate-school-debt/?tid=sm_tw

This might be some sort of a problem....

 

Holy crap. I honestly expected to see all good schools on there and even wondered if my alma mater would be one of them. I guess it makes sense, though - graduates of those schools would have a harder time getting jobs that would pay off that debt. The good schools on that list (I counted 6 I think) are probably just expensive as fuck.

Also, WTF Liberty?

 

The funniest thing about that is that Liberty isn't even a real college-- it teaches things like gay aversion therapy as psychology as well as intelligent design as science classes. These were the dipshits that thought it was a good idea to release a bald eagle in a glass atrium on opening day. And they're ripping people off blindly. Just...wow.

 

It's a completely accredited University and the bald eagle was Oral Roberts.

 

So you've got a horde of students taking out loans at shitty rates, to get shitty degrees at shitty colleges that they can't afford.

I remember this time, back in 2005, when people were buying houses they couldn't afford. That turned out well.

You can blame the schools for hiking tuition rates, and you can blame predatory lending. While both of these are factors, the main problem is people are fucking morons.

 

A majority of the schools on that list are for-profit online degree factories. They let anyone in who is willing to take out the loan. And then when they are unhirable douchenozzles upon graduation, they sit with that debt forever.

I can't imagine a potential employer sees that you're a "Phoenix" and thinks that it is a good hire.

They appeal to the Maury Povich crowd(seriously, look at the avertisements when that show airs) and take tremendous advantage of those people.

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa. You're saying that "Academia" has had such a monopoly on patting themselves on the back, getting federal funding, controlling incredible tuition hikes, and self-sustaining themselves through their relentless "advancement" department, that private enterprise has waded into the mix and now dominates the marketplace as a way to generate profit? No. Say it ain't so. Gosh, it's almost like a bubble is getting ready to burst.

 

I think people use it out of convenience and the appealing price. At least, that's the only thing I can come up with. Is it because they know it's a sure thing with no effort, is the marketing department THAT good? Nobody ever outside of a commercial has anything good to say about these places. I have a friend who both he and his wife went through Phoenix, using the GI Bill. They both could have went through a public university's online program.

Either way, tuition debt is a $4 Trillion bubble waiting to burst. No educational institution (HAH) should be allowed to accrue that much debt and potentially impact a worldwide economy. To put things in perspective, the past couple weeks has seen a wretched market over Greece's $96 billion, 5%-ish the tuition debt. No bank should be permitted to engage in these practices either; it's just dumb business especially after the housing bubble. Think about that number. It makes my teeth cold.

Bingo. How stupid can you be? Don't answer that because we had a rash of people taking out ARM mortgages on high end cars they couldn't afford. People putting themselves in debt over a fucking Audi, though it is a sweet ride, braw.

Which goes back to my question, WHY these places? My state university took anyone, literally anyone. A couple people needed someone present at all times to wipe the drool off their chins.

 

A lot of people just don't know how shit their educations are going to be until after they graduate these supposed schools.

I worked with a few poor bastards who spent 40 grand on an associates degree. Only to get a job that in no way affords them the ability to pay off that debt.

Then they have to go back to even more expensive school to try and get a better job to pay off even more debt.

 

I don't understand the amount of money they're throwing at Greece, again. It's gotten to the point where they need a massive bail out almost every year. What is this going to do that one before that and the one before that didn't do? I also don't understand how Greece drowning means they're going to take Europe with them. They're not. There would be consequences, but they are not nearly as severe as they're made out to be.

I took out one sizable loan my first semester. Then I got a letter a couple months later notifying me that the terms had changed just because. My interest rate had gone up dramatically and the time frame I had to start paying by shrunk. Learned my lesson, switched to a way cheaper school, and took out one, much smaller loan over the next four years. The first five grand I dumped into student loans only got me back to even, mostly because payments were inconsistent early on. At this point I can get rid of all of it within the next few years. I can't imagine being some people I knew who graduated owing six figures and couldn't find a good job. Fuck that shit.

I agree that a lot of the borrowing has to do with just being stupid, but then again you're talking about young adults in the 18-24 range. Of course they're idiots. It's not until after their third year that they get an idea what the job market actually looks like and realize that just saying 'degree' in a job interview isn't actually going to cause them to tear your pants off and start sucking your cock.

You know what's one solution? Have college students take an orientation class on how it's important to add up how much you'll actually being paying back, see what the penalties are when you miss payments, and how to interpret what loan terms mean/how to get real advice. It wouldn't have to be overly long or a huge burden to the universities, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it would be a start.

 

For me, a degree is a ticket to the job market. It's kind of like the price of a taxi token in NYC....the cost of the degree can be spread over a lifetime of earning, and without it, you're digging ditches. So, the cost doesn't matter if it gets you access to the job market. That's the lie being sold, and it's a devious one. I'm a fan of academia, in general, but it's a lot like medical care: it doesn't respond well to normal supply and demand. I truly needed a degree to get one job, and after that it was a box on a checklist. So, for my career (rimshot) the degree was useful and relevant for about half the time it took to earn it and that usefulness and relevance really can only be increased by doubling down into grad school, at an even more outrageous cost.

I giggled when I saw Columbia on that list, because my ex has a $140,000 saddle to pay off a one-year teaching master's. That's obscene given what a teacher makes in this country.

The only caveat was that some social service jobs have a way of wiping out the debt after a set amount of service or a 25 year expiration.....which eliminates any incentive to paying more than the minimum, drawing the interest out for decades.

Whoever designed this system should go to jail, because they sure like fucking 17-year olds.

 

Agreed, and whoever sold the bill that a college degree, with the exception of a few specialized fields (medical, law, and a few others), was necessary to get a good job should be shot. Education is great but a lot of what is being taught is a joke and completely irrelevant to the job market. Yes, you need to learn how to compose an email but that is pretty easily taught. Yes, it's a good thing for profitable companies to give back to the community but that's not imperative. Our market is different than many others in that RV salesman can make six figures without a lick of college debt. A degree is worth something and I don't mean to belittle education (college grad here) but where is the tipping point? What is the dollar amount where kids start saying, fuck it. I'll go make 40-70K in a factory and not have the debt load I would if I went to college and most likely ended up making the same money. Some have mentioned going to a state school and spending less. That's a great decision and well worth it. But I have a niece that graduated with somewhere around 80K in student loans who is working with autistic kids. I applaud her determination to help them out and I think it's a worthwhile profession but I don't know how she could ever pay that back.

The system is broken, for profit or non-(HAHA)profit aside these schools are flush with cash and they are charging more than it will ever be worth except for highly specialized professions. So again, where is the tipping point where potential students join the workforce rather than piling up tons of debt for a "chance" at a high paying job? It's like focusing on athletics thinking you'll go pro and hit it big.

 

Where, in the name of fuck, can I make $70k in a factory without a degree?
Or an RV salesman making six figures?
(SERIOUSLY! IF ANY OF YOU CAN HIRE ME AT $70K TO WORK IN A FUCKING FACTORY, YOU MIGHT DROWN IN MY TEARS OF HAPPINESS)

That's the point....if you are under a certain age (say 35), you NEED a degree to apply for those jobs competitively. Why? Because that's your only real credential if it's early in your career, because every other serious candidate has one and because no company is going to pay a 19-year old enough of a living wage to build experience any more. It's not that you need one to perform, but you start off behind the curve without it.

The degree is your ticket to ride, kids, and it doesn't matter how much it costs because you're stuck in the fucking amusement park.

 

I think too many students don't use logic when applying for college and think that a shortcut to fame and fortune is through arts degrees. They all think they're creative and talented but the fact is most of them are frauds and charlatans stuck with a VERY expensive and worthless piece of paper when they graduate. The comparison of people who take arts in college and those who actually get a job that pays a living wage in that field is one of the most unbalanced scales on earth. To the people who DO get a successful career in arts I give a big "kudos" because you are a borderline anomaly.

 

If you want a job with a potential for a $70k salary without a degree, go into IT. You'll spend a few thousand (maybe) to get certifications from Microsoft. Entry level support jobs start at $45k (in the Seattle area). I know people in IT who are making six figures without ever sniffing the inside of a college classroom. Yeah, you're essentially a technical janitor, but that will motivate you to advance your career to the point where you don't have to answer phones anymore. And this is just coming from the support desk side. Unemployed database administrators, for example, are unicorns.

 

Welcome to the RV capital of the world DD. You'll get run to death but you'll make pretty good money in the process. To be fair 70k is pretty rare but 40-50 is pretty easy to find. Again I did say our little portion of the world is a bit different because of the RV market but the sales gigs are real. Years ago I tried to get into a place that paid around 90k a year (factory) but understandably they didn't have enough turn over for positions to be available. That was a unicorn though and when the place sold they stopped offering that kind of pay.

I don't disagree that a degree is a ticket to ride, and for some or even most of us that's all it is outside of specialized fields. You say it doesn't matter how much it costs, I wonder when kids/people will balk and say, "Listen asshole, I'll never make that money back working a mid-level management job if I can even get that. Fuck it I'm not going to sink that much money into a degree that won't pay over time".

 

To echo a couple other members -
I know a lot of people who work in a factory and make well over 70k that don't have a degree. They didn't start out at that of course, but 40k is easily within the range and you will be at or over 60k in five years without being promoted.

Also, I can't say it actually works out quite this well, but there's a bunch of programming/other IT intensive schools where you basically get an insane workload for 3 months while paying 10-15k. The 'found a job within 3 months' rate at these were over 90% and usually in the range of 70-90k on average. They might be full of shit, but if so I didn't see any articles proving it (although I didn't look too hard). Some of them also offer a deal where you don't pay anything until after you have a found a job in the selected field. Worst case scenario you wasted 3 months, but still learned a useful skill.

Going back to the topic at hand, I think we need to move back towards an apprenticeship philosophy. Give me two solid years with a good mentor and I'll learn much more in any business related field than I would studying it for four years. I also wouldn't have to waste my time on pointless general electives taught by aging hippies with a political ax to grind. The highly technical fields need a degree, or a trade school. I would wager 80% of majors are either wholly irrelevant, or mostly irrelevant when compared to the work people actually do. Maybe my percentage is too high, but we're talking about a lot of majors, not a few.