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But Seriously...

Discussion in 'Permanent Threads' started by Juice, Jun 19, 2015.

  1. Rush-O-Matic

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    Nate Silver's interesting look at the trolling. http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/donald-trump-is-the-worlds-greatest-troll

    Being in the news, even if it's because you're a useless moron, (see Kardashians) can be worth a lot of publicity / votes / money / etc.
     
  2. Juice

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    Hey thats great, and I support it because fuck the police. But I also dont underestimate the power of being lazy.
     
  3. Kampf Trinker

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    Isn't Ted Cruz the guy who said net neutrality was Obama care for the internet? What does that even mean? He's also a chairman of the subcommittee for science and space is one of the most ardent climate change deniers out there. Don't know much about him either, but no thanks.

    That's 50% of Bernie Sanders campaign at the moment. That he doesn't take money from them. Trump is up in the polls because idiots think he's a hero when he says his racist vitriolic nonsense. Then when people cut him out of business deals because of it he becomes even more of a hero. Trump's problem is that when candidates in that 2-7% of the polls range start dropping out before or early on in the primaries those votes won't go to him. The man is a disaster in the making, but he sure as hell knows how to get attention.

    Oh boy. Where to start with this one?

    Here's the thing. At a certain point it just becomes self absorbed and annoying. This is that point. Booing people because you need it to be YOUR issue and fuck everybody else is just being an annoying cunt. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Here's the other thing. This is not a huge issue. I would be really generous to say 50 black people get shot by cops a year without warranting it whatsoever. Realistically, it's probably less than 30. The guardian has been compiling a data set on cop shootings that's probably the closest we have to real numbers. So far 167 blacks have been shot dead by cops this year, accounting for 26% of all shootings. Black Americans are 13% of the population so yes, that is disproportional. But...

    And this is the part where facts make someone racist:
    In 2012 they committed:
    - 50% of the murders
    - 32% of forcible rapes
    - 52% of robberies
    - 33% of aggravated assaults

    Gee, it's kind of unfair to look at one statistic in a vacuum isn't it? These percentages drop when you account for all types of crimes committed, but when you're talking about the shit people get blown away for those are some alarming numbers.

    I'll tell you what. I'll be generous and say 10% of those shootings were totally on the cop. We're halfway through July so call it 30 a year. Now, you can be a crazy person and pretend 90% of those shootings are unjustified, but you're delusional.

    It's not a huge issue. No. No, it's not. What is a huge issue is violence in our society as whole. How do you solve that exactly? I can't answer that, but I can tell you how you don't. Chanting 'black lives matter!' and then booing someone for saying all lives matter. They're not helping anything. They're not solving anything. They're just trying to shine the spotlight on themselves. They don't give a flying fuck about the murder rate among black Americans, or if they do they sure as hell don't like talking about it. I have zero sympathy for them, and if you want to ignore every other violent issue, then call someone 'ignorant' because they call you on your bullshit it makes you fucktard. It makes you even more of a fucktard to call them racist for bringing up violent behavior that kills way more people.

    Reduce violent behavior in America and the police shootings will reduce with it. Only talking about one sliver of the problem and then acting as if that is THE issue is a waste of everyone's time.
     
  4. Kubla Kahn

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    The dude claimed he made 200 million dollars from Celebrity Apprentice. Dayumn. Yeah this could parlay into a lot of money for him.
     
  5. Juice

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    Trump isn't an idiot. Maybe his dad's money helped get him started, but his empire has grown exponentially larger because of himself. Hes a sharp, ruthless business man and he has made his career on being underestimated. Of course that doesnt mean hes not being a douchebag.

    Heres a great article comparing John McCain to Trump.
     
  6. toytoy88

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  7. Misanthropic

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  8. ghettoastronaut

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  9. Kubla Kahn

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    Note to the unknowing. The original drafts of the 2nd Amendment included a clause that included conscientious objection on religious grounds. The founding father's were well aware of the concept.
     
  10. downndirty

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    Here's the main issue with the black/police violence: a cowboy, us vs. them mentality.

    St. Louis is not Mega City One and Officer Porkwad is not Judge Dredd. There is a process that these people are being denied, and it is not a question of whether or not "they deserved it". That's not how capital punishment, or justice in general works. 400 fatal police shootings a year is ri-Goddamn-diculous....this isn't Dodge City, 1867.

    That's the crux of the issue: it's us vs. them and they deserve to die?. How dare he refuse my instructions to stop selling untaxed cigarettes (NY)! He tried to run from justice, so justice shot him in the back? Never mind the people who were guilty of being within the vicinity of my gun muzzle and nothing more.

    A cop will NEVER win the respect/disrepect game, especially not in these neighborhoods so the only card they can play is escalation and it's being dramatically over-played.
     
  11. ODEN

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    Let me spin the prism from which this issue is viewed for a moment because I have said this before and I will say it again; this is an issue with how law enforcement behaves overall, not just towards the black community. We have a real problem with the current force continuum used and how quickly things escalate for everyone.

    What wrestles my jimmies with this issue of #blacklivesmatter and how O'Malley was booed for saying all lives matter is that even though I don't agree with his politics, he is right, all lives matter when an individual on the street is accosted by Judge Dredd. All of what you said about law enforcement meting out sentences in the street without the due process and protection of the law is correct and it is startling but it applies to everyone, not just black folk.

    So I lose a lot of respect for the #blacklivematter crowd when they do this because to me it doesn't look like they are really interested in justice, it looks like they are interested in "just us".
     
  12. downndirty

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    Every time this sort of thing happens, the first thought that runs through my mind is: "If someone patiently says 'fuck your moral outrage', is there still a problem?" With 400 people a year (again we are not even formally tracking this nationwide), being shot by police...yes, there should be real outrage. With all lives matter/black lives matter....no. Same thing with the Confederate flag nonsense: the core problem still exists and is not being addressed.
     
  13. The Village Idiot

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    On the police issue:

    I've recommended it before, but if you're truly interested in this issue and the developments over the last 40 years that have resulted in today's policing attitudes, read Radley Balko's "Rise of the Warrior Cop:The Militarization of America's Police Forces." While he has an agenda, as all writers do, he backs up his contention with facts that check out upon investigation.
     
  14. Crown Royal

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    Balko's book is the best book about modern American law enforcement that there is. It is a book that will no doubt anger a lot of people that read it, especially considering what a psychotic collective of embarrassment the U.S police system has become. I mean right now this Sandra Bland thing is a monstrous cluster fuck and it's very, VERY obviously a cover-up by the shitheel cops in Texas.
     
  15. Kampf Trinker

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    Again, here's my problem. You guys only want to focus on a handful of isolated police incidents. You don't feel any need to address the murder rate, the crime rate, violence rate, or anything else. It's all the cop's fault. Bullshit. We had 14,000+ homicides in 2013. Take 30, or 50, or whatever arbitrary number you want for crazed frothing at the mouth police shootings. It's not the biggest problem, not by a fucking long shot.

    I'm guessing you didn't read my post or just decided to ignore it. This is kind of hyperbolic bullshit that doesn't explain anything. Why don't you just call it the modern holocaust?

    I would also add the protesters would like to deny process to the cops they want lynched. Don't like the verdict? Don't like the results of inquiry and investigation? Scream for blood and riot in the streets. They're not all rioters and thugs, but there's no shortage either.
     
  16. Juice

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    Racist.

    Its shocking when people claim they have negative encounters with police officers in such large numbers. Ive been pulled over many times, put in handcuffs, been served search warrants (that turned out to be nothing), and been interrogated. You know what? In each situation, I was calm and respectful and so were they. When I got pulled over I didn't whip out my phone camera, starting reciting my rights to the guy (or girl - I'm just a cis white male, forgive me), and scream, "AM I BEING DETAINED?" Everything went fine. And with that, they are human beings too who are capable of flaws. Yes - they are and should be held to a higher standard in stressful situations, no doubt about it. And thats not an excuse for a cop killing the kid in New York getting strangled to death for selling loosey cigarettes. They took the job, they need to take the responsibility that comes with it. And any lapse in justice when it comes to brutality is a tragedy and should result in outrage. But its not happening in large numbers. Lets stop pretending that it is.

    What bothers me more is the institution that supports them. Arming police officers with AR-15s while treating citizens like criminals for wanting to own firearms is insane. That's tipping the scales in AN alarming direction. By law, the armed forces are not supposed to act as civilian police but it sure feels like it sometimes. In the same piece of legislation, Massachusetts enhanced its CCL restrictions and approved the provisioning of military grade firearms for the state police. I'm not saying anyone is planning to go to battle with the cops, but its pretty cut and dry militarism. I guess I just look at this issue from a 2nd Amendment standpoint more than anything.

    Both groups, the 2nd Amendment supporters and the #blacklivesmatter protesters, have the same bone to pick with the system, they are just coming at it from two different angles. Its too bad both are so far outside each other's orbit that they will never come together on it.
     
  17. The Village Idiot

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    All due respect, you are doing exactly what you are criticizing others for, namely, extrapolating your personal experience (as a white guy) with police encounters across the entirety of the set, thus minimizing the experience of others. I, myself, have been the victim of police brutality. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind (after having represented criminal defendants, talking with many officers, and watching trials, prosecutors and defense attorneys) that there is a racial component to all of this. Unfortunately, people end the inquiry there. There is a whole lot more going on here than just racism (and I'm not saying 'just racism' as if it's a minor thing, it isn't) - there is a huge police problem in this country. Not just with shootings, but with whom is prosecuted, who ends up in prison, the amount of people that have been exonerated while on death row (I see no difference between a cop shooting an innocent person and the state putting an innocent person to death), and the general laws that are enforced over others.

    Eric Garner was thought to have been selling cigarettes without paying taxes on them. Let's assume he was holding a carton, 10 packs. Let's also assume the state of New York receives an average of $8 per pack in tax revenue. Mr. Garner thus was alleged to have bilked the state of New York out of $80 in tax revenue. For that alleged crime, 5 cops show up, put him in a headlock, forcibly throw him to the ground, and choke him out til he dies of a heart attack.

    Meanwhile, the largest fraud in American history took place just blocks away. No cops showed up. No one was wrestled to the ground. In fact, quite the opposite was true. The government agents showed up and invited the perpetrators of that fraud to meetings to help them financially not be hurt by their own fraud. They appointed them to cabinet positions, they paid them interest on money they gave to the perpetrators, and bent long existing laws to not only bail them out, but to make such another future occurrence not just more likely, but even more damaging by allowing them to further consolidate their power among only a few entities. Too big to fail. Cost to the American taxpayer? Somewhere north of 1 trillion dollars.

    Obviously these are extremes. But they outline what gets prosecuted in this country, and what doesn't. It's not only racism the police engage in, it's classism, it's an ego centric belief that we are all just criminals waiting to happen. They have a besieged mentality. We arm them. The President of the US mentions that they look more like an occupying military force than police.

    He's right. It's all around you, and if you really start to dig in to the stats of crime, punishment, and policing in this country you may well find that while blacks are certainly targeted more than whites, that no one is truly safe in this atmosphere. So saying 'it's just a black problem' is shortsighted. It's an 'everyone' problem. But the real problem is that 'everyone' doesn't seem to get that.

    Yet.

    But don't worry, they will. I just hope it's not too late when the rest of realize we actually need to stand up and say 'You work for us, not the other way around, knock it the fuck off.'

    By the way, 'too late' is when you or your loved ones are in a cell for minimal 'crimes' and you're deemed a 'criminal' by society and your voice is ignored.

    But hey, don't worry, if we ignore the problem, it will go away. Just like our rights.
     
  18. Juice

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    I wasn't making a racial argument regarding the police, I didn't even bring it up in my discussion until the end. I was talking about brutality in general. And my point wasn't to extrapolate my experiences and imprint them on the group, it was to state that there's a way to interact with authority figures that won't escalate situations beyond what they need to be. That doesnt invalidate all cases of brutality, of course there are some very real examples, of which I pointed out an explicit example of.

    Equating street-level brutality to the lack of justice of Wall Street financiers is a waste of time. Its a fun comparison to make, but its apples and oranges. With the exception of Madoff and a few others, selling collateral debt obligations and MBS assets isn't a fraud. Who would you want arrested for it? The 23 year old investment banking associate interacting with clients and packaging up the assets? The idiot on main street taking a loan he cant afford? The CEO of JP Morgan Chase or Goldman Sachs? All members of Congress who passed the legislation? Bill Clinton who signed off on repealing Glass-Steagall? Or should we dig up Ronald Reagan and whip his corpse? It's completely pointless making those kinds of comparisons.

    The financial mess is a completely different animal. Its going to happen again, but it wont happen on our side. It will hit Asia first and trickle back to us next time.
     
  19. silway

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    I have a real problem with the mentality that the onus is on the private citizen to manage the interaction with a police officer to prevent abuse. It really shouldn't be. Police are empowered by us to violate the laws and rules that govern regular citizens in order to accomplish a law enforcement purpose. They need to be held to the standard that they cannot exercise those violations without very specific and appropriate causes. That, yes, they have to be *better* than the people they are interacting with. Calling a police officer a "fucking pig," or whatever, is not grounds for assault, kidnapping, and murder. It is not a crime. It's the job of a police officer to a) suck it up and b) de-escalate. Sure, it's not smart in today's law enforcement climate to be a douche to police, but that's the symptom of the problem. Why isn't it? Because police are able to successfully justify their own criminal activity based on the attitude of their victims and that really needs to stop.

    And yes, it means that if you're not able to interact with the community without escalating the situation (and, it's not always murder, simple false arrest sure as hell counts) you shouldn't be a cop. If that leads to a "crisis" of too few police officers for awhile, that's better than too many armed bullies with a license to do whatever they want.
     
  20. Juice

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    The onus isnt on the civilian population, and it shouldn't be. I said the cops should be held to a higher standard. However, its silly to pretend that they aren't human beings that are capable of doing stupid shit, or abusing power, or not acting within their rights. On paper that sounds like Im excusing their brutality or violation of civilian rights - Im not. Im saying in real-time, when you interact with police, its in your best interest to not act like a dick head. Yes - you have the right to do that without getting fucked with or fucked up via nightstick or sidearm - but flipping out at police officers isn't going to help your situation in that moment. These people aren't robots, we are empowering them to enforce the law on our behalf and a certain segment of them is going to let the power go to their heads. I'm not saying this is right, I'm saying its the best way to handle it on the individual level.

    My mentality on all of this stuff comes from a libertarian/individualist point of view. That the government isnt really going to protect you and does a terrible job protecting you from itself, therefore a person has to look out for themselves.