This is the totality of my point. It's not that I think Hillary has a bad platform. It's based solely on information gathered from public opinion so I would expect many Americans to find it agreeable. It's that I can see no reason why anyone should believe Clinton actually stands for her platform. I got to be honest with you. Trump is kind of nuts, and it is on some level possible he'll do something enormously stupid that will result in a disaster. I just think the price we're paying is too high to justify giving into that fear. Everything about Clinton's past, and Clinton now suggests she will further rig subsequent elections, as well as exacerbate the rampant fraud.
Regardless of the debate Gravy and I are having, we can probably agree Trump is fucked. http://money.cnn.com/2016/10/12/media/new-york-times-donald-trump-lawsuit-threat/index.html Given the accounts the women gave in the original story, it's not at all unlikely Trump and the women viewed the situation quite differently. Still, even in the very slim chance these accusations were completely fabricated he is destroying his campaign. Hillary is almost scandal proof at this point. I can't even think of something that so much as could emerge to bring Trump back into the race. What would it have to be at this point? That she literally eats babies? Plus, it's likely enough that Trump was simply abusing his power and assaulting these women without a second thought.
If you vote, the next US President will be either a skeevy, sketchy business blowhard with no political experience or a habitual lying criminal with lousy political experience. And, if you don't vote, the next US President will be either a skeevy, sketchy business blowhard with no political experience or a habitual lying criminal with lousy political experience. As Black Jesus said before he ejected from this forum, we'll get exactly what we deserve. Both Republicans and Democrats put forth candidates that were more credible, had more character, and had better ideas, but they were all rejected.
That's the point of elections. If she doesn't stand by her platform we can vote her out in four years. I think she'll mostly stand by her platform because she's an experienced politician that knows she needs public support to do anything. I also understand that she'll enact policies that I don't agree with, just like Obama has and Bush did before him. That's the nature of politics, and democracies are set up that everyone gets a voice and no one gets exactly what they want. I also expect there to be some back room dealing, because again that is the nature of politics. I would like some of these things to be different, and I would like our election process to be fine tuned to limit access for big money and corporations. However, I generally I think our system works and believe that Clinton will follow through on many of her platform issues. Especially if she has a favorable congress and senate. If you really dig in to the political history of this country you'll find quite a few dark periods that we have always dug ourselves out of because the founding fathers set up a very robust and resilient political system for this country.
One thing bugging the shit out of me because people keep coming back to it. Hillary's Wall Street speeches. Everyone talks like they're the worst thing she did and it makes clearly a lying two-faced liar! Or, you know, a politician. They get in front of a group and tell them what they want to hear. If she is in front of a group of steel workers, she tells them she'll help create jobs and increase their salaries. If she is in front of a teachers union she'll tell them how she'll find a way to increase their pay and education funding while reducing testing. If she talks to a group of soldiers, women's groups, whomever. That is what politicians do. That is what politicians have done since the beginning of time, and Donny-boy is no different. Remember when he was "more liberal?" How he stated in the past he was pro-choice and even in favor of gun control? Now, he's the republican nominee and has to suck up to the NRA and evangelicals so he tells them what they want to hear, whether it's true or not. He tells everyone what they want to hear, whether it's true or not. When Hillary does it, she's a big lying phony fraud hypocrite who will never follow through on her platform and needs to be jailed. When Trump does it, he's this bastion of "tell it like it is" honesty. What the serious fuck?
Who said that? If Hillary just had a couple scandals I could look past them. Her whole career is one big scandal, and there is evidence that she is against damn near everything she is running on. Also, politicians have to suck up to who they are talking to, but to a point, man. They should be telling them why the ideas they've been running on already are good for them. They shouldn't be shuffling and rearranging stances on a daily basis, or in some cases for Hillary, hourly. She'll go to an event, catch a flight and say something different at another. The level of not give a fuck behind her lying is astounding. This has not always been the norm, not in the way you're talking about. Like I was saying earlier in the thread, politicians have to play the game, but when they are the game entirely you have a problem. What is the point in voting if not only can you not know what you are voting for, there's flagrant conflicts on interest and a history of doing the opposite of campaign promises? I think if Americans just accept this shit as politics we are really selling ourselves short.
You say that like she HASNT been running for President for the last 4 years. when you're a politician for life, every speech is a campaign speech. She knew damn well she'd be running for President when she made those speeches, and she was in front of a group of influential voters. Don't try that symmantics stuff.
Its not semantics, but you are creating a false dichotomy by trying to deflect it to Trump or saying that every politician does it. Thats fine - but the subject is Hillary Clinton. The difference is she is so grossly, unabashedly corrupt that it (at the very least) calls her character and motives into question. Her secret speech to the banks is a green light for Housing Crisis: Round 2 and thats just one, of many examples of her corruption which have been pointed out countless times previously. Its a bad sign when Hillary supporters have absolutely no defense of her other than, "Trumps worse."
Ironic considering I can sum up the entire Trump argument in this thread with "Hillary's worse." Exhibit A: Summed up: Trump is awful, Hillary is worse.
That's not ironic. People are calling it a lesser of two evils election for a reason. The way people write these problems off with such dismissive explanations is frightening. What kind of argument are you trying to make? These terrible candidates discredit opinions about this terrible election? There are reasons I've written that I think Trump is preferable. They aren't great ones because yeah, Trump is awful too. And if Trump really is throwing the election on purpose, I'm getting a shotgun and going after the Illuminati. That last part is a joke.
I was blown away when I was watching the last debates and she called being two-faced "very presidential", and was proud of it because Lincoln did it to get the 13th amendment passed. She admits that she panders to her audience, and thinks the ends justify the means, and that it's somehow noble and presidential.
I just thought likening herself to Abe Lincoln was hilariously gross and she was rightly called on it. The worst part about this situation isn't that different messages are crafted for different audiences it is that taking one stance means you're actually working against the interest with the other crowd. In this case it happens to be a subject the left is very loud about, reigning in Wall Street, which should make it more unpalatable to voters that are in her corner.
That so many otherwise clear thinking people believe he ever actually wanted to be president is easily the most depressing part of all this to me. What about Donald? Given how often he's been mic'd up in his life, and how openly he talks about and to women like he does, do you think HE didn't know there was plenty of audio available that would undoubtedly ruin his chances? Or do you honestly view this as a monkey wrench thrown in the campaign of a man earnestly running for president? Seriously dude, the few valid points you make critiquing Clinton are completely irrelevant because the guy you seem to be backing can't resist openly sexualizing a ten year old girl when he knows he's on camera. Yes, the bar is so low that the ability to act civil in public is the sole reason she deserves to win. But if you think not crossing that bar is going to somehow make politics better, you're not only getting duped by a blatant con man, you're deluding yourself.
Few valid points against Clinton? Trump is a revolting pig. I don't think he's a rapist. I think he's an unfiltered buffoon who throws himself at women like a turkey splattering against a window because he knows he can get away with it. The way he's losing this election is pretty consistent with the character problems he's exhibited all along. The misogynistic comments that are costing him so dearly now have been there since the beginning. And I don't think the timing of the sexual assault charges in coincidental at all. Either these women want him to lose, or the Hillary campaign has been digging around for them (very, very likely) and is releasing it when it will be most damaging. There's been a rape case against him throughout the election as well, but there's not much substance behind that, yet. The reasons you think he is throwing the election appear to be incredulity at how much he sucks. I think he just sucks that much.
Put yourself in the shoes of these women, though. They were dealing with a powerful, rich man who is known to use legal means to bury those who speak out against him. He calls women fat pigs and gets his fans and followers to attack. Ask Rosie O'Donnell how they goes. He shoves his tongue down a woman's throat or gropes them (pretty much exactly what he said he did on that tape). What are your options, if he does that to you? Come forward immediately? You'll be called a whore and a slut with alterior motives, a fame and or money grubbing whore, and be buried in a lawsuit. They don't know if they're the only one he has done it too, and even if they're not, when any other victims see his response and how coming forward leaves the your world shattered, no one else will come forward. So OF COURSE you try to forget it happened. BUT, flash forward. He is running for President. When he was a b-list reality star and rich guy he thought he could assault you, and you imagine what he would do to women as President. Then, the tape comes out. Suddenly, everything crystallizes. You weren't the only one, he did it to many women. Just the confidence of knowing you're not alone would be enough for some women to come forward. Combined with a desire to NOT See the guy who nolested/assaulted you rewarded with the title of leader of the free world, and of course women are coming out of the woodwork. I don't think Hillary's camp is behind these women coming forward now, because they don't have too. Once that tape became public, you had to know the floodgates would open. All her camp had to do was what most of us did: sit back and watch the shitshow.
Trump was just on fox news giving a speech that did not sound like your typical campaign pitch. He's talked about unshackling himself from the republican politicians and what he just said sounded like a call to overthrow the American government. I fucking don't like him at all on a personal level, but a lot of what he is saying is the truth, and I've seen the media 'debunk' his accusations of corruption against the establishment. Our government is spitting all over us, and the alternative is starting to sound more like a revolutionary than a president. Fuck.
I wonder if you said the same thing in 1992? Again, both sides excuse or ignore the actions of their candidate while condemning the other guy for doing exactly the same thing. Bill Clinton was not fit to be president in the same way Trump is not, but neither is Hillary. Neither side can make a valid argument why their candidate is better this year. Neither candidate is better, they're just each terrible in their own special ways. If you vote for either one as the lesser of two evils, you're still voting for evil. I'm going to write in someone else this year, but I haven't decided whom yet.
Yeah, they haven't all been hyperbolic. But you didn't answer my question. I'm asking if you think he was caught off guard by these tapes and allegations, given that he's presumably aware of what he says and does and when he is wearing a mic. Because if you think he was caught off guard, then you think he's incredibly stupid, and I wonder why you would vote for him over someone who, based on your critiques, you think is corrupt, but not incredibly stupid. Or you agree that he knew this would end his chances eventually, and that he never actually wanted the job, just like the Huckabees and Santorums and Trumps of elections past, who run knowing full well they don't have a chance, in which case I wonder why you would vote for him over someone who legitimately wants the job, takes campaigning seriously, and isn't a "revolting pig". And yet, your bullshit detector hasn't been going off since the beginning, making you think that maybe this isn't the campaign of a serious man? Fascinating.
Think about this for a second. The public has known about these comments the whole time. What caught him off guard was the bombastic attack from the media. The comments on video are bad, but really if you look at much of what he's said that was available beforehand it's on par. There's been a lot of conspiracy talk in this thread. Your one about him throwing the election intentionally just isn't very compelling. If we're going to talk back and forth about how what he said is gross, I feel like we're beating a dead horse here. If you really think he isn't taking the campaign seriously, I would go check my post on the last speech he made, or listen to some of Trump's speeches that will be rolling out over the next few days, and consider if that is actually the scary part.