But Seriously...

Fair enough, so then back to the NAACP. What institutional power have they had to use against white people? If any ever existed, I'm sure I'd be aware of it since I'm a 38 year old white person. As I said before to Toytoy, I've just not ever felt there's some cultural discrimination that's going to hold me back because I'm white. And when people say stuff like, "what about when there was this one time when I was in LA and was told I should get a hotel in a different neighborhood" it's like watching the destruction Harvey and Irma caused and then listening to someone say, "yeah, but there was a small brush fire behind my garage that singed some of the siding before I could put it out. When are people going to stop worrying about Harvey and Irma victims and start helping me?"

 

I already explained it right here:

And I explained my reasons for doing so.

Depends on what you mean by "count". If you mean, "This happened and I experienced this", then no, I'm not disagreeing with you and it counts (which, again, I already said). But if you're implying that what you experienced is in some way equivalent to what black people experience, then no, it doesn't count because it's trivially inconsequential. But I think we may be going in circles about this.

I never denied what happened to you. I simply disagree that it was racism, because I defined racism differently, and then went on to explain my reasons for defining it differently. Why is this such a sticking point with you? Words get redefined all the time, if I were to say "I had a gay time at the bar last night" it'd be taken to mean something different if it were 1917 instead of 2017. I don't think anyone would argue this. So why are you so hyperfocused on the definition of racism? If you prefer to think of it in terms of institutionalized racism vs. personal racism as you mentioned above that pretty much gets across the same idea as what I've been saying. My entire reason for elaborating on what sisterkathlouise said was to explain that defining racism the way she did isn't just some arbitrary bullshit and has logic behind it.

 

What evidence do you have that corroborates this?

 

I explained the reason for re-defining the word. Do you think my reason is untrue? That some assholes want to abuse [the definition I've offered] doesn't invalidate it. I've chosen to adopt it because the reasoning is logical - there's never been a Jim Crow for white people, redlining for white people, etc., so calling out the distinction makes sense. Nettdata refers to the difference by calling it institutional racism (vs. personal racism), but it's pretty much expressing the same - or at least a similar - idea.

 

This is a separate argument about who owns the meanings of words and how the meanings of words change over time, so I won't start that here. But needless to say, it isn't so cut and dry.

What the fuck? Where are you getting that I'm angry at you? I'm not. I'm not even all that frustrated because I know the argument I've been making isn't an easy one to swallow. I've been a member of this forum since 2009, so how about give me a little credit?

I'm not insulted. Why do you think I'm feeling insulted? It was obvious to me from the start that there was going to be disagreement with the idea, so I'm not taking this personally.

 

I'm with Nett on this. There are a lot of militant liberals conflating words with deeds. Racism is a thing, *whether or not you have the institutional power to act on it*. It goes in all directions, and honestly when you play these word games it makes your entire argument suspect. We're all grownups here, we've all been burned once or twice by a silver-tongued con artist. Or car salesman. Painting in broad strokes means you have no eye for detail.

 

Accepted; it happens. I'm dealing with one of those myself, although it's mitigated somewhat by the fact that I'm the auditor and she can deflect to her heart's content and it won't change the fact that I'm going to report my findings regardless of her opinions.

 

I don't entirely disagree with you here. Trying to change the common definition of racism to what I (and SKL) have been describing is both deliberate and acknowledged. Some people like the idea of changing it because they think it means they can act however they want and no one can call them out on it, but those with more honest intentions want to change the meaning because [those people believe] lumping all forms of prejudice and discrimination under one broad definition dilutes its significance.

When I first came across the idea that there can't be racism against white people (in the US) I too thought that was stupid. But when I considered the reasoning behind it I came to understand the logic of the argument. I think the logic is sound, which is why I'm willing to defend it.

 

But that's the thing, racism isn't a broad term. It's "hate based on someone's race or skin color", just like sexism has its own definition, and homophobia. The *application* of racism, the institutional oppression of minorities et al, that has its own term: oppression. If you have no power, you cannot flex it to oppress others.

 

Of course "oppression" itself can be a terribly broad term, running the gamut from "paying tourist prices" to "shot 41 times on your own stoop". But that's what context is for.

 

My problem with trying to redefine common words that are commonly understood is it feels like you're putting demands on people for no reason. It reminds me of the whole thugs=dog whistling thing. What, you decided it suddenly means something else and you think you're in a position to demand other people view it only in the way you suddenly chose? Well, fuck you then. You aren't in a position to demand that of anybody, nor should you want to demand it in the first place.

Moreover, what is the point in demanding (and I'm not saying Trakiel is 'demanding' but I've seen plenty of others do so) that racism only means whatever you arbitrarily decided it means? What does that accomplish? You can quite easily make your point without pointlessly trying to change the meaning of the word so why bother?

It also reeks of that childish victim contest bullshit, which to me is also pointless and counterproductive.

I also somewhat disagree with the modern concept of institutionalized racism as it pertains to the US. I wouldn't go so far as to say it doesn't exist, but I don't think it's that institutions are so racist now that's really the cause of barriers to upward mobility, I think the hangover of institutionalized racism is much more significant.

I'll put it this way and maybe some of you will think I'm wrong, but this is how I tend to see things. If you're white you have a much better chance of coming from a wealthier affluent family. If you're black your grandparents were much more likely to be impoverished, and it's only expected that it would carry over into our generation, even if racism was totally snuffed out (obviously it isn't, but even if).

However, I'm skeptical of the idea that the real problem is every institution is racist now. I just don't buy it. Yeah, I mean I'll hear someone out who has a different background than me and take it into consideration, but I've worked all over the US and the idea that most businesses go out of their way to not hire women and minorities is bullshit and you can't really sell that to me. Not saying none of them do, but it's no where near a ubiquitous thing or a 'most of them' thing.

There are some areas yet where I think it's reasonable to say our society has institutionalized racism, but again, I think it's much more the hangover effect than 'this is how everyone tries to conduct themselves now.'

All other things being equal the prospects for opportunity favor you if you're born white, but you're much better off to be born black and to wealthy/middle class parents than to be born white in the trailer park. I see people try to claim that "no matter what whites have X multiplier of privilege regardless of anything else" and I can't really see things that way.

 

That's another pet peeve of mine: this apparent drive on the part of some people to just...surrender words and gestures to other people who would seek to misuse them. Like the OK sign, which all of a sudden is sign language for White Power. SAYS WHO?? Fucking trolls on twitter? And because they say so, it's their symbol now? Fuck outta here, grow a spine. You're not even dealing with these bums face to face, fuck are you scared of?