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Caitlyn Jenner & sexual identities

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Juice, Jun 1, 2015.

  1. Binary

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    Good thing that nobody on Facebook spends their time posting pictures of hot girls. Or, you know, in forums.

    Why are you tying "sexual identity" so closely to porn? I don't see any LGBT people who put quotes from gay porn stars on their Facebook feeds.

    You've never known straight people who spend all their time talking about sex? Never seen or gone out with a bunch of guys who are going to the club to dance with and try to pick up women?

    Some people tie their entire identity to sex - straight or gay. Some people tie their entire identity to being a vegetarian, or a hunter, or the kind of music they like. This isn't new or different or strange. It's just people who have a narrow range of interests or a narrow identity.
     
  2. Binary

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    Perhaps you can find it in your heart to forgive a section of the population that has experienced (and continues to experience) a lot of bigotry for being a little sensitive about the subject.

    If you're friends with the person, maybe you should explain that it bothers you to not be able to express your frustration. If you're not friends with the person, maybe you should stop putting yourself in the position to have to listen to it.

    In any event, I'm not sure people deserve to be "called out" for their choices just because they are annoying.
     
  3. Kubla Kahn

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    I mean by it's very nature labeling oneself as gay, bi, trans,etc focuses their identity to the outside world purely on who they fuck not what ever hobbies they enjoy. I chose porn as an example because it kind of highlights how outrageous that is as a concept. I get they are discriminated against unlike your average cooking or hunting hobbyist. I also agree with Clutch's sentiment. The PC police take it to extremes and a lot of this hurts their cause more than helping.
     
  4. Binary

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    I can't tell what you mean by this. Are you saying that, as a society, someone calling themselves LGBT causes us to unduly focus on that fact? If so, okay, but what's your point there? It's not the person's fault.

    If you're saying that the person themselves identifying as LGBT means they are intentionally focusing others' attention entirely on that fact, then no, that's not true. Period. Is labeling yourself as straight an effort to focus the world on the fact that you have sex with girls?

    Some people tie themselves closely to a particular piece of their identity. That's not unique to non-heterosexuals or sexual identities in general, and has nothing to do with identifying as LGBT.
     
  5. Kubla Kahn

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    I mean you don't label yourself LGBTetc or straight to let anyone know you are into bird watching. At its core it is letting the world know who you prefer to fuck. Im not saying it's their fault either or are being intentionally provocative. I guess it is done to help normalize the concept, hopefully some day it will not have to be something they have to wear on their sleeve. It would seem ridiculous, I know I'd feel ridiculous, if I made it a point to specifically label myself hetero/straight in a public setting.
     
  6. jdoogie

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    So... it's still cool to publicly voice my opinion that vegans serve no positive purpose to society, right?
     
  7. JWags

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    Absolutely. If it comes out that Caitlyn is a vegan as well, then she can go fuck herself.
     
  8. Nom Chompsky

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    Fwiw, I know a lot of trans people who would be overjoyed to never have to say they were trans and simply be seen as their gender. Most don't have that luxury though
     
  9. JoeCanada

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    I think it's more than just "who they prefer to fuck."

    Gender and sexuality are a big part of our identities, and like you say, this is an effort to normalize it. Lots of people think I'm a fucking lunatic for preferring Pepsi over Coke, but that doesn't really bother me because it's just a drink choice; it's not tied to my identity or who I am as a person at all (despite what Coke drinkers might think).

    When it comes to gender and sexuality, LGBT(qrstuvbbqetc.) folks are saying "hey, this is who I am, I'm not ashamed of it."

    On some level I agree with you; I can't fathom wanting to turn in to a woman or have sex/relationships with men.

    But they just do want those things - that's pretty easy to understand, isn't it? I don't identify with their lifestyle at all, but if it makes them happy and they aren't hurting anyone, I want them to go for it. Why do you have to label yourself "not trans friendly" and call them "weird"?
     
    #49 JoeCanada, Jun 3, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2015
  10. comforter

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    I'm sure I'll be flamed for this, but what the hell.

    If someone looks at their body and thinks they're disgustingly fat, so much so that they'll starve to death rather than eat, that's anorexia and a well-recognized mental illness in the DSM.

    If someone wakes up scratching itchy legs that have been dust for over fifty years, that's phantom limb syndrome and a well-recognized mental illness in the DSM.

    If someone thinks their body is filthy and thoroughly washes it 50 times a day, until their hands are bleeding, that's Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder and a well-recognized mental illness in the DSM.

    But if someone looks at their wang and decides it isn't him, and wants to get it chopped off, we can't question his mental stability.

    Help me understand (I'm actually serious here; I don't). I certainly wouldn't attack or ridicule this person, but I wouldn't immediately assume he's sound as a bell and give him explosives. Especially given the staggering suicide rates among transgendered, which are a tragedy regardless of your stance on anything.

    (And I know of the problems with the DSM, which are irrelevant to the discussion).
     
  11. Binary

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    Gender Identity Disorder / Gender Dysphoria is in the DSM. I did not say that person did not have a mental illness - they absolutely do.

    Accepting that someone has a mental illness, and questioning their mental stability are two different things. Do you think that people with anorexia, or phantom limb syndrome, or OCD, are all mentally unstable and should be treated as if they cannot be trusted with anything of importance? That they don't have a shred of an ability to separate out their gender issues with the rest of their life?
     
  12. JoeCanada

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    That's really interesting, but I don't fully understand the mental illness thing.

    As I understand homosexuality, a gay man can love another man the same way that I can love a woman. Those men can get married and lead perfectly normal, emotionally healthy lives. So is homosexuality a mental illness, or just a deviation in preference?

    Same thing with being trans - can a man who identifies as a woman get a sex change, then go on to lead a perfectly normal, emotionally healthy life? I was/am under the impression that they can.

    The reason I ask is because something like OCD seems fundamentally different. Nobody says to a serious OCD sufferer: "hey good for you! You just keep being you!" Maybe they have the urge to check their mailbox exactly 25 times a day, but doing that doesn't make them happy. Bipolar people aren't just moody ("and that's ok!") and schizophrenics don't just hear fun voices ("and that's ok!"). Those are conditions that inherently lower your quality of life and should absolutely be treated.

    Why then, if gender identity disorder/gender dysphoria are considered mental illnesses, do we encourage people to just go with it?
     
    #52 JoeCanada, Jun 3, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2015
  13. Binary

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    The dysphoria comes from the struggle to reconcile your internal gender with your external sex. It's considered an illness because of that struggle - a man who identifies as a woman and gets a sex change and then feels comfortable could be considered "cured" of the dysphoria.

    On my tablet so can type more tomorrow but that's the heart of it.
     
  14. JoeCanada

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    Gotcha - I can see the reasoning, but it still seems silly to me. If the cure to your illness is to give in to it completely, it shouldn't be called an illness.
     
  15. Currer Bell

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    I am always hesitant to talk about it because this person is really high up in my organization and politics is very much at play, but there is a transgender woman here who has been in this organization a long time as a man (I don't know how old she is, but no spring chicken), made the switch, and has continued to go up the ranks. I am extremely impressed with her and what she has accomplished and impressed with her bravery. I occasionally encounter her in the bathroom and if I am at all flustered, it is only because of her rank. She has never given any indication that I shouldn't be confident in her leadership and no one else in my organization has given any overt objection. I sometimes wonder if anyone who joined less than a few years ago would even know she had gone by another identity here (without the benefit of gossip).

    Interestingly enough, she also chose a very girly name like Caitlyn.
     
  16. Binary

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    I'm not really an expert on the topic so I hesitate to delve too deeply here, but that's not the right way to look at it.

    If the illness is the mental discomfort ("dysphoria") associated with the conflict between your mental gender and physical sex, why is a sex change not a logical treatment? If you have appendicitis, you don't accept that your appendix just isn't all its cracked up to be - you eliminate the cause of the illness by removing it. People with mental illnesses are regularly counseled to change their lives to address their triggers.

    Some illnesses have specific causes that can be resolved directly. Why does that make them less valid?
     
  17. Juice

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    Johns Hopkins wont perform sex changes because they classify it as a mental illness.
     
  18. JoeCanada

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    I think I was confused with the terminology. You said:

    and

    The comparison to OCD and anorexia threw me, because I thought you were comparing a trans person's desire to change sexes with an anorexic person's urge to eat 200 calories a day, or someone with OCD needing to wash their hands exactly 15 times every morning. I just meant that I've always thought of being trans as having a healthy mind that's the opposite sex of your body, not a mentally ill mind of the same sex.

    But you're saying it's considered a mental illness in the sense that they're dysphoric about legitimately being the "wrong" sex, not that their brain is misfiring and telling them crazy nonsense.
     
    #58 JoeCanada, Jun 4, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2015
  19. Nom Chompsky

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    Yeah but the same dude who funded that 10 year old study also thinks the Catholic Church has a "homosexual problem, not a pedophilia problem" so, your mileage may vary in terms of his progressiveness.

    Bold of him to support the Catholic Church AND fund a 10 year old study but hey, i don't make the rules
     
  20. Revengeofthenerds

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    The one time snoop dog wasn't high: when he called Caitlyn a "science experiment."

    If you don't agreee with any or all of the LGBT thing, whatever. I don't personally agree with it, but I understand it. That whole Voltaire quote, "I do not agree with what what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

    However, if you have any amount of weed in your system, you look at that in/famous picture, laugh, maybe call her hot, and say "whatever man."

    But what part of what Caitlyn did and is doing has to do with science experients?