Once again, I think it depends firstly on the financial situation of both parties. If I know he is far richer than me and he accepts my splitting a $15 tab, then I will think he's either not a very generous person or he's cheap. If he is a broke student like me, I'll think he's a broke student like me. I can't be mad at a guy for wanting to save his wallet a little damage. Next time we will just do something less money-oriented. The only time this hasn't held true was when a guy insisted on taking me to a shooting range that I could not afford to go to myself. Halfway through, he realized how expensive it was and started to panic, so I offered to pick up half the tab. He jumped at the offer, which was really off-putting, considering he had been the one who insisted on going some place expensive. The point being if you're broke and not prepared to pay for the bill, don't fucking go somewhere you can't afford and hope the girl will bail you out.
Or he just may respect you, and accept that you may want to feel like you're pulling your own weight, and not owe him anything. Quite a few women have a lot of pride in being able to pay their own way, regardless of the guy's best intentions. I know that if I was out and a girl said she wanted to split the tab more than once, I won't argue or press it any more, and will split it... because I respect her desire to do so.
Forgive me for replying, since it is WDT time and this might be unedited/disjointed. As least I can spell check when having rum. Anyway: Back in the day when I had to date, I always paid. However, one thing I fucking HATE is double-standards. Hear me out before you estrogen rage on me. "We want equal rights!" "We want to serve in the military and do combat!" "You must ask us out, and if we're feeling generous, we'll say yes, but then you must pay for everything, EVER." One of those things is not like the other. I agree whole-heartedly with the first two. Women should have 100% equal rights. But think about it: A guy has to muster the balls to ask you out. You may or may not agree, but let's face facts... If you aren't Brad Pitt, you're getting shot the fuck down 9 times out of 10. Then, you get to pay for everything. I've had women who have used me to A) make an ex jealous, B) get a free meal, C) teach her algebra (hey, she was a model, what do you expect, a fucking Mensa member?) or D) whatever. Women want to be pursued and paid for and pampered, but want to pick up a rifle? Get the fuck outta here. Single ladies of TiB, I challenge you: If a guy has the courage to ask you out, at least go out for coffee. This guy sacked up and asked you out, the least you can do is go out and spend 20 minutes of your life getting to know somebody new. Maybe he'll stalk you, or maybe you'll find out the guy is a decent guy who you wouldn't have given the time of day to. Even offer to pay for your own coffee and danish or whatever the first time. Hell, if nothing else, the karma alone would be worth it.
Which part exactly? All I am saying is that certain dating traditions are very nice, but not required. Down here in the south, it's pretty traditional that the male treat the female if he asks her out to dinner. However, I've had it go the other way too, and there were never hard feelings or bitterness because my date didn't fork over 10 extra bucks for my salad and sprite. When you start expecting things then you become a real bitch/douche, whichever role yours might be. As for that guy I knew, he would pay for all his friends, female and male, expecting things in return. Not just sex. He would hold it over his guy friends' heads to get them to do stuff for him. When I say "system," I mean the tradition of paying for a meal as a sign of interest.
In any case, I think dating traditions are a really hard subject to look at objectively. There's a lot of superficial cultural and traditional stuff ingrained in everyone when it comes to these practices. I know for a fact that I'm not objective on this subject. I have a view of how women and men interact, and I'm sure each one of you have a different view. Those views manifest themselves in how you interact with people on dates and in other scenarios.
The part where you don't see the direct, straight as an arrow, link between this weird signalling system where the guy is only viewed in a romantic/sexual context if he pays for you and the fact that this huge d-bag you know is a huge-dbag.
I did not say that it is ONLY viewed in a romantic light if he pays for my dinner. It is merely a larger than life sign that he is. If he's flirting with me the whole night and giving me a ton of other, positive signals, and then ends dinner by splitting the bill, then that last act does not X out everything that happened previously.
Up until the relationship I'm currently in, the two men I dated seriously insisted on paying for me. "Taking care" of me. He would pay for dinner. Movie. Whatever. My coffee was made for me in the morning, complete with foam on my latte and the temp I preferred. My birthday was "Whatever you want, I'll pay for it." I never demanded it, I never expected it, and after a while I didn't want it. I was young and stupid and dumb enough to genuinely believe that guys did this for any woman they love, that's what men do, I was that sheltered. Then I found out it's a trade off. In exchange for 'taking care' of me, they got to yell at me. Scream obscenities in my face. Throw me around. Throw my possessions into the garbage. I had to ask permission for everything. I had to ask for money to put gas in my car. I was literally their dog to kick around because they bought that privilege. I know, now, most men aren't that way. I know, now, that's not how normal relationships go. But I still like what The Guy and I have going on where I feel a little more on equal footing.
Are you me? Because that sounds exactly like one of my previous relationships. I will never, ever share a bank account again. Ever. I will never, ever stay at home and assist him with his career in lieu of having my own. I will never again accept an oil change, groceries, or any other necessary item from anyone other than my parents (because it makes them happy to do stuff like that for me, not because I ask them to...also, my Dad is convinced that I will forget to change my oil and then I'll die in a car explosion or something). I realize that not all men are like my ex- in fact, I'm sure that there are many lovely men out there who would genuinely want to take care of me with no ulterior motives other than making my life easier because they lurrrrve me. But I won't. Ever. I'm too terrified about the potential strings that can become attached to such "gifts." So...no. I'll always have my own job (or two), my own bank account, pay for my own necessary shit, and I sure as fuck will never move in with another dude unless I have enough money in my bank account to immediately move right back out if he starts showing signs of asshattery. Dates: This is where my feminist pants make people uncomfortable. I will not let my date pick up the check whatsoever until we've established that we are, in fact, dating forreals. Until then, there is no need for either of us to make a financial investment in something that might not turn out to be anything at all. I split everything until that point and I'm somewhat insistent on this. I haven't had anyone fight me on the issue, but I've certainly seen some raised eyebrows and a few awkward moments. I don't care, though- it's not fair to either of us, in my mind. I think the idea is that, by splitting, I'm indicating that I'm not interested...which isn't the case at all. It's always amusing when I start doing the coy "so...I had a great time and I want to do this again soon" speech after having split a check/admission prices earlier and I see a look of pleasant shock and surprise on his face. However, if you don't bring enough money to do whatever activity that we've planned before we get to the "yeah, we're actually dating exclusively" stage, I reserve the right to judge the fuck out of you. I'll cover his half, but it's a black mark in my book. I don't feel like this is too judgey-wudgey because I know I've certainly had to decline dates before due to low finances or whatever...it's not hard to come up with a bullshit excuse or to suggest something cheap/free as an alternative. That said, I'm currently dating an older man who has more money than I do. I'll pick up things where I can, but I know he ends up paying for more than 50% of our activities/meals. It bothers me. A lot. I'm currently looking into picking up more work in order to ameliorate that situation...but then I won't get to see him as often, which will make him unhappy. Catch-22.
It really depends who I'm out with. I go out to dinner a lot with a friend who has a pretty good job - she doesn't make the same money I do - but she's not hurting either. We split stuff pretty equally. Having spent a fair while broke, and with broke friends - it's nice to not be paying for everything, and nicer still to be able to afford my share of shit. I went out on Friday with a friend who works in a bar and lives in a share house where she uses a trolley as a wardrobe. She's a really nice girl and hot as all fucking get out, but she's not exactly rolling in disposable income. She was coming out at my request to a place that was pretty expensive and was coming in part to be arm candy and meet my friends - so of course I got her drinks for the night. The girl in question is awesome though, she showed up expecting to pay her share, argued with me about it, and went out of her way to impress the crap out of my friends - including pimping one of my friends who struggles with girls so hard that we thought they'd come to some kind of financial arrangement. Most of my friends and hookups at the moment are cool about money, but for some reason otherwise awesome people lose perspective when it comes to computer repairs. The number of people who would argue to the fucking death about me picking up a five dollar McDonalds Drivethrough bill on the way home from a party, but will ask me to do $500+ worth of work on their fucking computer, without even considering a handjob and a coffee as a thankyou, because I'm a computer guy - just blows my fucking mind.
Out of curiosity, what would you do if you were dating a man making let's say four times what you are and gets an offer to make double that if he moves somewhere that doesn't offer any type of opportunities in your career? Would you make him choose between you and his career or would you make the sacrifice? From a 'have a family' perspective it seems retarded to make him choose, but from an individualist perspective I could see staying strong in your own ambitions. Personally I would quit my job, put on an apron and ask what kind of duties I could do for my GF, but that's just me.
I think you're missing the point. Being 'kept,' on the surface, looks like a sweet gig. What's really going on is a completely unbalanced power struggle that you can never win. Because one person pays for everything, the other person has no legs to stand on in any kind of argument. It all boils down to, "you owe me, because this is what my money buys." No thanks.
All the mental health issues aside, the biggest reason my ex wife and I divorced was because she couldn't handle the fact that I was the bread-winner in the family, and everything she had pretty well came from me. I NEVER held it over her, and always supported her unquestioningly in anything she wanted to do, but her pride caused a shit-ton of resentment to build up, until she couldn't take it any more. She hated like hell to ask me for cash, or for anything. And yet her mental health issues caused her to not be able to hold down a job. Joy. When she moved out it was a bit of a wake-up call for her, and she realized that she couldn't make it on her own. I tried to get it across to her that it's a partnership, and while I bring cash to the table, she brings other things, and it all balances out in the end. You can't put a price tag on everything and try to do some sort of emotional accounting to see how you stack up. She couldn't wrap her head around the fact that making me happy was priceless to me, and mere cash paled in comparison.
A question for all the guys on this board: if your GF/wife/SO found herself earning a salary 4 or 5 times that of yours, would you give up your career? Could you go from having your own money and sense of accomplishment to having all of your material wealth flow through someone else? I would imagine the students and guys working a shit job for a low wage would have a knee-jerk answer; I'm curious if the guys who make some serious bank would walk away from it all and be willing to trade that life for one where they had to ask for gas money or new clothes.
I refuse to pay for the girl all the time. I have a friend who has to pay for his girlfriend all the time, just out of some kind of sense of chivalry that I seem to lack. This stems both from my financial status (broke student) and from an unwillingness to deal with a girl who expects to be bought things in return for her company. From time to time, however, I enjoy taking a girl out and making it clear that tonight I'm paying for everything.
In a fucking heartbeat. I make a pretty nice income - so 4 or 5 times what I make is an impressive amount. But if someone making that kind of money was willing to keep me as a house husband? I'd be done with my job and barefoot in the kitchen trying to decide if I had time for another round of XBox before it was time to make dinner before she had time to change her mind. To clarify, I probably wouldn't be able to just vegitate indeffinetly. I've got a couple of small business ideas that I'd like to try out and would love to try and get published as an author. I'd ultimately have to have some kind of project. But the things that take time and energy I don't have spare around my day job and don't pay well enough/fast enough to ditch my day job for could keep me busy around cleaning the house and making dinner for the foreseeable future without any problems.
So is it hypocritical to shower attention and "love" on the girls that freely and happily pick up the 4 BJs a day tab? The best double standard ever?
... How did I 'miss the point?' I recognized the desire to remain independent, but countered with a tangible scenario that many people deal with in real life which is practical, yet deviates from this point of view. Well, if we could stay where we are, no, I would continue to work. If we had to choose between me keeping my job, and her keeping her job which was about the same money, or moving somewhere where I would be unemployable, but she would make 4-5 times what I would, you bet your ass I would give up my career. I'd take up cooking classes, learn to clean like a motherfucker and be a home maker.
Fuck. Yes. In the end, I'll never stop working. Getting paid for it, though, is a totally different story. I would give my left nut right now to have a wife be the bread winner, so I could just hang out at home all day, cooking/cleaning/laundry, and writing code for my startup. Or working on the car in the garage. Or fishing. Or lounging around on the trampoline. Or taking an online cooking class. Or anything that I wanted to, when I wanted to. As it is right now, I'm doing pretty well that, but the "getting paid" thing is a bit fucked until we get some sales/momentum. (The early part of a startup is never known for being big paydays... that hopefully comes in a couple years, if you're lucky). Adam Carolla has an interesting take on the new, modern relationship. To paraphrase him, if you're white collar, you're wife doesn't look at you as working hard, and therefore feels she doesn't have to give as much to the relationship. If you're blue collar, and come home all dirty and tired and beat up from working the coal mines or whatever, it registers to them that "holy fuck he's been busting his ass and I have to do my part". I think he's right. A lot of women I know don't appreciate the effort that "white collar", never mind IT, work requires. After a long day, I'm fucking exhausted. But how hard can it be to type at a keyboard all day, right?