Not only that, but how many hundreds of millions of shots have been given so far? The long-term risks, I'll agree, are unknown. The numbers rolling in for current vaccine safety, though, are quite positive. I think Canada currently lists 11,500 adverse reactions, of which 2,500 were serious. Out of 50 million shots.
Canadian government is requiring shots for all federal employees and air/rail passengers. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-government-mandatory-vaccinations-1.6140131
I've mentioned before that my cousin works in the US about 90% of the time - mostly Michigan, New York and Tennessee. There's talk from the private insurance companies that those who refuse a COVID vaccine without a medical exemption may not qualify to have medical treatment covered under their insurance policy. Now, THAT would be a government mandate I could get behind. Don't force the vaccine on people, but make them pay for any medical services they use as a result. I think it would balance the rights of the individual and the state well. It's fair to say that if you don't want to take reasonable steps to protect yourself, we will not pay for the consequences of your inaction. IMO.
Ive advocated a similar fatty tax on healthcare dollars. The real issue in the states is how you’d impose this on people on government assistance for their healthcare (re:disparate impacted minorities who make up a good chunk of the unvaxxed). No politician is going to risk blow back raising healthcare cost on poor black people.
This is ridiculous. You're still trying to force them into it and you're using a way heavier hammer. "It's wrong to stop people from eating in restaurants without the vaccine; it's far better instead to inflict them and their families with ruinous medical debt once they get the disease. Now that's liberty baby!" And despite it being a heavier hammer, most people who aren't vaccinated don't think they can be the 1% who can get fucked by this, so it wouldn't even work. Nah, we would already be paying the consequences of their inaction with an overburdened healthcare system. Once people get covid without being vaccinated, we've already lost. You're just adding in a bunch of poverty for kicks.
The problem I've had with my own position is that, by insisting that the individual has autonomy to decide whether or not they choose a medical procedure, the consequences for that choice are shouldered by the public. Particularly in Canada, where it's full universal healthcare with zero private company or insurance options. As an aside, I have big issues with our healthcare system but this is not the thread for that debate. Essentially, if you gamble with not taking a vaccine - which, again, in my opinion is your right - it doesn't matter to you personally, because you know that you will get quality medical care at no cost. The true risk, of course, is to your long-term health and vitality. But the health risk of COVID vs the health risk of the vaccine is a no-brainer when you run the numbers. Even if you give credence to some of the extreme nutball theories floating around, the incidence of death and injury potential with the virus is way higher than the risk of the vaccine. So, if you want to make your choice and not pick the best solution the government can produce, then I personally think it's reasonable for you to also bear the financial burden of your choice. Is it a heavier hammer? Man, if the thought of a $1million dollar hospital bill is scarier to you than permanently losing the use of your lungs, then your mind isn't right. But in terms of freedom of the individual vs. the interest of the state, it seem like a fair compromise. You want to go all-in with no protection? Then it's fully on you. The more I think about it the better I like the option. It is of course purely a thought experiment; I don't know if Canada has the legal framework to allow for such things and given that they're going to call a federal election tomorrow there's no way any candidate suggests it, but it's certainly interesting.
A $1 million dollar medical bill is a heavier hammer than not being able to eat inside a restaurant. That was my point. But yeah, a lot of people who aren't getting the vaccine don't exactly have the best head on their shoulders. You keep thinking in terms of a logical and well-reasoned public, but that doesn't exist. But again, it's really not. They are part of the public. Their bad decision has an affect on everyone in the community. The will spread the disease and some percentage of them will fill ICU beds that can't then be used for the rest of us. Even them being ruined by medical debt would have a huge affect on the community as a whole. But I'm not going to convince you. Meanwhile, I get to look forward to starting school next week without a mask mandate, without contact tracing, a low vaccination rate, fewer than 10 ICU beds left, and a virus that's more transmissible. My predictions about Covid have been wrong before, but I think it's about to get really nasty.
Just like contracting COVID, this sounds nice in theory but is not representative of reality, because these people belong to a larger community. There's an old finance joke that if you owe the bank $5,000, you have a problem. If you owe the bank $5,000,000, the bank has a problem. So let's say these people contract COVID, and end up with a million dollar hospital bill. What then? I think we can safely assume very few people will be able to afford that. So they now have a giant bill that they can't even make a dent in. The leading cause of bankruptcies in the US is medical bills. Canada has a bankruptcy process, so most of these will simply be discharged through that process, and the hospital gets paid $0 for its million dollars worth of services. Or you could make these non-dischargeable. But that doesn't really help, because it's still not a quantity of debt that can be meaningfully dented by the majority of people. So... what, then? Draconian attempts to take the money resulting in impoverished/homeless citizens who are forced into social safety nets, costing taxpayers money? Leave it up to the hospitals, causing them to burn manpower trying to collect a bill that the patient can't pay? No matter what, the hospitals aren't getting their money. Everyone is worse off. And sure, maybe some people will get vaccinated because of that, but not everyone will. It's a problem to mandate vaccines, but it's not a problem to threaten holdouts with impossible sums of debt that will never get paid and cause hospitals to lose millions? A long-term ICU visit isn't the patient's problem. It's always the hospital's problem, because patients simply do not have the means to contribute meaningfully towards the cost. At the end of the day, you'll end up paying for it, because hospitals will just raise costs on everyone to cover the guaranteed losses they'll experience. And it's in nobody's best interest to institute policy that results in citizens getting pushed into poverty.
Those people who won't do something simple like get a free vaccine are like smokers who ignore Doctor and healthcare warnings, and then get lung cancer, because they won't put down the cigarette, or people with obesity-caused diabetes because they won't put down the fork. You ignored all the expert medical advice and made a poor decision anyway. Fuck off.
They're far worse. Nicotine is addictive and sugar is delicious, and neither is contagious. Not-getting-a-vaccine grants you nothing more than the innate joy of being an obstinate prick.
Whoever came up with processing sugar is the single greatest drug dealer in human history. Where everyone else is seen as a mass murderer, this guy just stepped up to the line and… SWISH.
Sad news, kids. Anti-Vax narcissists Vatican Cardinal Burke has been put into a coma from COVID. Drag. I guess their cult will have to soon find another propagandist to spread lies about viruses and protect all those men who rape children. Really, the one good thing to come out of all this horror is whenever it exterminates one of these useless, ignorant pricks.
The interesting part is more and more the news is about the anti-vaxxors getting it as they are the ones that are predominately being hospitalized. Because of, you know, the conspiracy against them.
My mom will hopefully be getting out of the hospital the next couple of days. It’s been rough. Her o2 saturation at one point was in the low 80’s and she needed a mask that forced oxygen down her lungs at some crazy rate of flow. But she’s been back in the 90’s the last couple days and feeling better with just a cannula. She still has pneumonia and just getting out of bed to use the restroom drops her o2 significantly. I can’t imagine how this would be for her without a vaccine. On the other end, our personal trainer friend has a few family members who refused vaccinations and they are all in the hospital. One definitely won’t make it. One is waiting on a vent and the other isn’t doing well. All in their 30’s.
This is a very common theme... gym-bro: "I work out and am in fantastic shape therefore the virus won't impact me BRING IT". COVID: "here, hold my beer."
I think I mentioned this elsewhere in the thread, but an old neighbor of mine had his son, all of ~22 and with no preexisting conditions or co-morbidities, hospitalized within days of showing symptoms, and died 48 hours later. His parents were COVID-deniers despite his mother being a nurse. They then posted tons of blubbering stuff to Facebook about how it wasn't a hoax and everyone should believe them. It's horrible that they had to lose their son. But I have to wonder if their son would have contracted COVID if his parents hadn't been so vocal about it being a hoax.
You simply will not change peoples' minds about vaccinations at this point until something drastic happens to them or their family. And of course by then it's too late. Here in our county, they've shut down a couple vaccination sites due to lack of interest. Only 44% of the county is vaccinated as of today with 55 new cases reported between yesterday and today. Local officials are trying to get people to see the light and they are laughed at. Hell, we have one county legislator making a mockery of others who are trying to get the vax rate up, including his fellow legislators. The willful ignorance is staggering. And since there's so much hesitancy to once again enact lockdowns, we are at the mercy of this virus. It could be a boom for the local funeral homes once things cool down and people are indoors more.
Is this common for other folks? I thought the hospitals had plenty of ventilators now? In the town not too far from me, the two competing hospital administrators and the local health department chief held a joint press conference last week. They said something like "we don't need your cards and support applause, we don't need ventilators - we need you to get vaccinated. That's how you can help us." So, I was just curious if other people knew of ventilator shortages.
I think at this point it's more a case of beds and staff than hardware in most places. The system is worn out and tired, and it's getting strained again.