Coronavirus: Miles away from ordinary.

I'm not sure they'll ever charge the public; the numbers they're doing, the governments are all picking up the tabs already. What will continue forever is the refinement of the tracking. Good luck grocery shopping in 18 months without a cell phone and a personal bar code that you have to scan to enter the store. And everyone will be shocked in 10 years when someone proves that the data was misused and illegally tracked.

 

Do you understand how science works?

 

I love how people think that COVID tracking is somehow the event horizon for data tracking.

If you want to have some "fun", go read Weapons of Math Destruction. Facebook and Google/Gmail and your cell phone carrier are way bigger "threats" than any kind of data from a COVID app.

 

A pre-peer submission that looked at 46 people.

Not saying there's not some truth in there, but I think it's a bit early to say it's all doom and gloom from such a small review. And the wording was pretty specific. I tend to read stuff like that, and wherever they say "may" I substitute "may not" and it's equally as valid, but way less scary.

 

This could be my own naivete, but for some reason - while Big Tech having full and unfettered access to our lives is unquestionably Orwillian and terrifying - I view the proprietary nature of their technology, plus their desire for profit, as a kind of built-in check when it comes to security. Misplaced though it may be, I trust Apple to have better security over my data than the Government of Canada. Apple goes out and hires the best people and has a vested, shareholder interest in being secure. The Government will issue a public tender and the low bidder gets it, then it comes in over budget by 20% and two years late and never really does the thing that it said it would do.

None of it is good or helpful to society. And maybe I'm merely indoctrinated to the idea that my phone is watching my life and recording what I'm doing, but in that instance I have the ability to throw it away and never pick it up again. The government doing the very same thing - albeit less secure and more hodge-podge - is disturbing.

 

I view it in the same vein as how the Patriot Act was abused. Plus, there's the principle that we have free movement in this society. By merely doing it, the government is in violation of what I personally feel is my right as a citizen. You don't get to track my movement without my consent.

How could this be misused if it fell into the wrong hands, or was used not as intended? I can see it being used as evidence against people who are charged with some kind of crime. You have the right not to incriminate yourself, but if the government knows every place you've been because they track you with or without your consent, that goes out the window. And lest you think I'm pearl-clutching about criminals, it would be used to disproportionately target the poor, minorities and marginalized. So the lawyer who gets pulled over for a DUI doesn't have much to fear, but the POC charged with possession of 0.5 grams of cocaine will also have the book thrown at him for any other area they could prove where he was at. It's one more burden for the weakest members of society to be targets for.

Also, this presumes that your tracking data remains secure. Should the government's system get hacked, then some unknown third party would know everything about you. Where you go, what you buy, where you live, etc. That's exceptionally dangerous. Everything from scam marketing to cyberstalking to identity theft. Like I said...I trust Apple or Google to be more secure than the Feds. If only because every 2-5 years the government changes, and the next party in line might do something completely different than the guys who set up the system intended.

EDIT:
This is also a slippery slope to a social credit system, like what China currently has. It's the base framework for it. So, if it ever got that far, your ability to get a loan or a job or live in the right neighbourhood could be tied to the data and metrics the government chooses to apply. That's quite far off right now, but it's not outside the realm of what's possible. If it happens, it will be fed to us in small bites under the guys of "for the public good."

 

So much of this comes from a place of fear and ignorance. If you REALLY knew what data was being captured by people using their phone, internet, facebook, twitter, or just browsing the internet, you'd be absolutely shocked and scared and amazed. The COVID tracking does NOTHING to add to that. It is not some major leap forward that is to be feared, we're well past that already.

Just the normal customer relations tracking software (like Intercom, etc) that is used in phone apps or websites already has WAY WAY more info than any of the COVID passport apps ever will.

And they sell that shit for a profit. No need to hack into government shitty databases, just go spend $100 and buy even better data.

Collecting and buying data has been a revenue stream for YEARS.

https://www.intercom.com/mobile

That is one of the most common "support and engagement" pieces that you can incorporate into your mobile app. You would be fucking scared if you knew the actual data it collects, both historically and in real time. I can usually open up an Intercom dashboard and see where any client of that app physically is at that moment.


But sure... freak out over COVID tracking....

 

Here, it varies by province with regards to what's required to live day-to-day and how you have to show it. Some provinces have the ability to scan codes tied to the system and some are still just "show me a paper copy of your vaccine." The federal government has an app they require of you to download at least three days prior to entering the country (this includes Canadians returning from travel, or even stepping out of the province for an hour into a neighbouring state). You are required to upload your proof of vaccination, proof of a negative Covid test, and the proof/reason why you left. If you are determined to NOT be exempt from the quarantine rules, the RCMP or border services will show up at your designated quarantine address and confirm that you are complying with their direction.

Right now, it's a big mixed bag. And I hope it remains that way, then fades back to not being a thing. But from what I see, I don't think that will happen. And if you think it's okay that the government do all this - again, unilaterally, without your consent and enforcing it such that your life is greatly affected if you don't comply - and you don't disagree with it exclusively on principle, then we have very different world views.

 

Do you not feel that there's a difference between a private company doing it over a device that you choose (or not) and an app that you choose (or not) versus the government doing it to its citizens?

My dad is in his 70s. He does not now, nor will he ever in the future, own a cell phone, tablet or a computer. Doesn't have an email, has never downloaded an app. Apple and Google have nothing on him, because he's never used any of their products. I personally have two iPhones (one personal, one business), and I acknowledge that they track everything I do and feed it back to god knows where. In my case, they have a long history of my activities. However, I could quit it all tomorrow by throwing both phones in the burn barrel. In both examples, we have free will to continue or abandon our participation with the system.

But having the government enforce the same practices and start doing the same things, and in this case you don't get to opt out (because you won't be able to do anything outside your house)...that doesn't strike you as a whole different level to things?

 

I should add, to bring it back to the thread topic, that this is being implemented to create a system where people who are not vaccinated are excluded from public life. A few weeks ago I read the term "medical apartheid," and while somewhat hyperbolic it seems to be apt. This system is going to be implemented and, depending on your demographic, somewhere around 15-30% of society will be made pariahs. Not able to enter public spaces or use some basic resources; in some cases hold down a job. You may feel a certain way about people who choose not to be vaccinated, but once we get a system in place that does this...what do you think happens to those 15-30% of people? And no, "They'll all die when they catch the virus," isn't the answer.

 

No, I don't feel it's different. If anything, the Government is doing it for a better reason... the health of it's citizens. Literally, helping people not die. If we had more common sense in this world, we wouldn't need it. But we have moronic mouth breathers that think they know better than modern science and espouse bullshit like "ma freedoms" and "it's against the law" without knowing FUCK ALL about what the actual law and rights of people are. NONE OF WHAT IS GOING ON IS AGAINST THE LAW OR THE CHARTER OF RIGHTS. Because it is for the health and well being of the people.

Look at Alberta right now. They are fucked. Beyond fucked. People dying, and so many others being refused health care because "MA FREEDOM!"

Life is a compromise. If you want to live in Canada, and benefit from it, then you get to follow the rules... and one of those rules is "the needs of the many can outweigh the BS freedoms of the few".

You already need passports... drivers licenses... 7-fucking-11 can kick you out if you're not wearing shoes.... but THIS is what people get pissy about?

I'll line up behind Bill Burr these days...

Go to the 5 minute mark:

 

Good. Because their "freedom" can and will kill people.

 

But I'm asking what do you think the actual outcome of this will be?

The intended outcome, of course, is to get everyone vaccinated and get the case count down to zero. I don't think either of those options are possible. My guess is that we will never eradicate Covid, and that those eligible people who have deliberately chosen not to get vaccinated will not be swayed by further boots to the neck and harsh measures. I'm trying to predict what the UNintended outcomes of all this will be. Do we have 15-20% of adults who cannot attend public events, enter public spaces, use government resources or sustain employment? If the answer is "Good, fuck 'em!" then what will HAPPEN to those people? Do you think they'll just disappear?

No, they'll create an entire separate economy for themselves. Like the heroin/pills epidemic, we'll probably see nefarious doctors pop up who "vaccinate" for a fee and get you your papers even though you never got the shot. You'll see businesses develop codes and second sets of books because, hey, money is money and if there's 20% of the population who need something and can't legally do it themselves...

I guess I'm not looking at this from "what would be the ideal situation" or even the morality of it. I'm trying at a guessing game of "where does this all lead to?" Because if we can't make the virus go away, and we can't get everyone vaccinated, and we create a divided society...I don't know what that will look like or how it will be to live in.

 

Google and apple and Facebook also don’t wield a monopoly on physical force like the government does. Again it’s not so much the immediate need that may make sense, public health safety, it’s the downstream and secondary consequences. Odd so many people, here included, don’t have a healthy fear of government with this kind of information given the machinations of power wielded by the last administration I was told was Hitler incarnate. Then again We really didn’t do shit when it was revealed the NSA was up to the exact fuckery they claimed they weren’t. So I guess it’s all a moot issue.