We're not miscommunicating. You indicated that a "smart" friend of yours was researching and making an informed decision on the topic of vaccinations. I'm saying that "smart" is not a reasonable qualification for interpreting the merits of specialized scientific research, and your friend is not, in fact, informed. And this whole slippery slope argument is a load of crap: there are literally thousands of people who are simultaneously studying the same thing, and no single scientist gets to say how things are. That's the way science works. Peer review isn't perfect, but it works pretty well, and the existence of less-than-perfect human beings in the scientific field does not make the opinions of non-experts worth any more. Individuals have the right to choose. If it impacts other people, that right has a box put around it so that the individual's right doesn't trample someone else's right to, you know, be alive and stuff. That's just the way it works when you exist in a society. I don't care that people have stupid opinions. I only care if their stupid opinion is allowed to kill my father. So we, as a society, pat them on the head and say, "sure, you're allowed to think that way, but you're not allowed to go out into the rest of the world and put them at risk." Which is okay with me.
Isreals implementation and models don’t suffer from our politicization. At least a couple non right leaning people here were dismayed when the 90+% protection went from general infection to just preventing severe infection after the first real world studies came out(general infection was in the 60s maybe?). Being over promised and under delivered isn’t necessarily moving goal post but certainly doesn’t serve for long term confidence in the messenger. Burn out and fatigue is a major factor in all of this and we’ve bungled it on nearly every level. It’s tiring.
I don’t see it as over promised. It was real time measurement without any history. As the history came in, the numbers were adjusted. Science.
Forget over promised, there wasn't any promise at all. That's now how scientists talk, and I think a big part of the problem is people not understanding how scientists communicate and what they're actually saying. A classic one is "We have no evidence of [X]" is not the same thing as "we have evidence of [NOT X]". When the WHO said they had no evidence of human-to-human transmission back in Jan 2020, people took that as some kind of promise that it wasn't contagious. But that's not what the WHO said. It was just something projected onto their statements, and then people got mad when the promise they themselves invented in their own heads wasn't fulfilled.
I’m honestly just doing what I’m told. I don’t mean that in a shitpost sarcastic way, I got my shots, I wear a mask to work because I have to. When I’m at places where a mask is recommended but not mandatory, I don’t wear it and I stay away from people at best I can - which is my normal M.O. anyway. I would get the booster, if I was told I could and should. But I’m too young and unimportant. I have a lot of stuff to worry about in my life. Being a sheep on this is just easier.
I dont know mRNA was touted as a miracle god send to vaxes to this and future viruses(maybe it still will be to ones that dont mutate like corona) with the super high percentages as the lynchpin of their wonder. Taking a step back with traditional rigorous testing would a vax that fell to 30% potency after 4 months would have ever been approved in the first place? Plenty of drugs that show insane promise in early testing only to come up quite short in human trials. You really surprised then there is hesitancy if we have to wait for the history to be made on how effective or safe it will turn out to be? Lets hope side a effect like myocarditis doesnt turn out to have long term effects on people say with family history of heart disease. Something normally caught in trials and at least given a quick blurb of warning at the end of a drug commercial. Fun fact, the first google result for "myocarditis long term effects" is the CDC asking for subjects to study the long term effects of myocarditis caused by covid 19 vaxes because that history hasnt been written yet. Now I truly believe the long term risk will be insanely low but boy the government whiffed this the worst of all given it is the main reason for hold outs. Instead we heard, you are killing grandma if you dont take it or not doing your civic duty or BABY COFFINS!!!!!! We've become to self absorbed and narcissistic as a society to pitch the greater good argument. Should have focused on scare tactics to the individual, the unknown risk of long covid for the young and healthy should have been the forefront. The risk of you having long term breathing issues is x,y,z over the risk of unknown effects of the vax.
Yes. Because there is history enough to show that it is safe. We just had no idea how long it would last, or what the new variants would look like. There are a few small things showing up, but they are statistically meaningless. We also know that COVID is a motherfucker that is only getting worse, and whose history is also showing only bad and worse effects the more we look into it. If we don't band together and do what we need to now, then in a few years we WILL be under military law and locked down and social interaction will be no more and it will be like some post-apocalyptic movie. People are acting like they are kids who want ice cream for breakfast, and then whine and stamp their foot when an adult tells them to STFU and eat their cereal. 99% of it is about being told what to do (not really) and not liking it, and striking out at authority. This "I've done my research" line is complete and utter bullshit.
Actually, I should say "no, I'm not surprised"... and by that, I mean I'm not surprised that people do not know how to interpret the information that is being presented to them, and are making uninformed decisions, and acting like spoiled children. Just like spoiled children, they should be told to STFU and do what's best for Society. I give zero shits if people lose their jobs or can't interact with society if they refuse to do their part to keep it safe.
I think all here would agrew Dixie is a knowledgeable and skilled mechanic. Wirh his training and experience, he's likely able to walk himself through tech manuals for a jet engine. Yet I think he'd be the first to tell you he's not qualified to work on or troubleshoot a jet engine with his current training and experience. That is no different than an ER or GP doc weighing in depth on COVID or any other virus or disease
So, are we saying that none of us is allowed to have an opinion on Covid or vaccines in general? Because if only the key PhD virologists are allowed a say, technically, this entire thread shouldn't even happen because no one here is qualified to even discuss this. When it comes to determining the actual science behind a vaccine? By all means, defer to the experts in the labs creating it. When it comes to social policy, governmental mandates and what an individual must be subjected to? I say we all get an opinion, because we all have to live in the same society. Unless you want to create a pathway for those who disagree to opt out as they see fit, which would of course mean stop garnishing the taxes from their pay. Obviously, no one will agree to that, but you get my point. And, again, using your logic...my dad shouldn't ask his GP about his heart meds, because his GP isn't the expert. He may not even be able to ask his cardiologist, because the cardiologist didn't come up with the formula or study how it binds to the receptors in the body. You don't necessarily have to know the minutiae to be able to speak to the whole of the problem. And, again...if we're looking at a situation where a "vaccine" drops in efficacy by 30-50% after a few months, requires boosters to retain its potency and still allows people to catch, transmit and die from the virus...yeah. I understand how a chunk of society says, "you're full of shit and I'm not doing it." If the plan for those people is to make them unemployable and incapable of functioning within the society, you're going to get one of two scenarios: large tent cities (a la California) where the "unclean" congregate. Those areas will be hotbeds of disease and dispair. Or, you could get open conflict between the two groups and an entire black market that crops up to service the people who can't enter the "approved" sites. We don't have a magical solution to force people who don't want vaccines to get them, so I'm trying to think through what the reality of this will look like when it plays out. Saying, "I don't give a fuck about those retards who refused the vax, they can all die" does not fix the problem, nor is it realistic. EDIT: Forgot to add...Dixie is an awesome mechanic. He's saved me much grief over the years of dealing with local garages.
This is super pie in the sky, because it will NEVER happen, but if the government wants to restrict the "perks" of being a citizen, then then can stop collecting taxes for the same person. Again, it'll never happen in a million years, but technically the path for that would look very similar to an expat living in the country; you'd wind up paying directly for the services that you use. Also, let's remember the hard numbers that we see. Right now, you have a 5% chance of needing to see a doctor or a hospital if you catch Covid. You have a 1% chance of being admitted to an ICU and a 0.3% chance of dying. All these are probably skewed high, because of the total tests administered and positive results found only talks about people who were symptomatic enough to get a test. Those percentages I just mentioned also skew incredibly towards the +60 demographic; they're way less the younger you are. This is only my opinion, but the healthcare system is clogged because it was fundamentally broken way before the shit hit the fan with Covid. When you see that, pre-Covid, Alberta had less than 200 ICU beds for almost 5 million people, you understand why a spike of 30% crashed the system. Personally, in the last year, my mother and I have started seeing doctors in Michigan because the wait times and level of care in Ontario are that fucking bad. But this is a separate rant.
that's actually a really good analogy. And to take it one step further, I also think that @dixiebandit69 is smart enough to know what he doesn't know, and would tell you that he's not qualified to work on a jet engine. The issue arise is when a car mechanic thinks that his experience and expertise does qualify him to work on a jet engine, or when a GP or nurse or someone thinks that their experience qualifies them to have an informed opinion and advise others on issues regarding virology. Want to know when to not listen to someone? When they're advising you on a field for which they aren't qualified.
Have an opinon? Sure. Have said opinion matter as much as actual expertise? Fuck no. This is the thing about society: it requires trust. The GP might not be an immunologist, virologist or whatever. The GP DOES have a particular set of skills, expertise, and knowledge, and we collectively trust them with our health. If you don't trust a GP, get another one. If you don't trust ANY, then you might have to look at yourself as part of the problem. There's nothing wrong with getting a second medical opinion. There's something wrong with not trusting the entire medical profession. Also, the GP has a personal relationship with your father, and that relationship needs information exchange. One of the reasons this situation is so bad is our access to healthcare (and the ability to ask questions of our providers) is limited. The GP answering questions is part of their responsibility. This is the disconnect: your opinion, and your vote, doesn't mean shit to the virus. We educated, trained and developed thousands of scientists to address the virus, and we as a society must honor that investment, because it's the best thing we have. It's the best thing because it's demonstrated to work, tested, re-tested, and has rigorous standards applied to it at each step. These people did their jobs, and delivered a vaccine that works. The longer this virus continues to circulate and mutate, yes the vaccine effectiveness goes down. It's not unlike how antibiotic resistance occurs in bacteria. The vaccine is one of several countermeasures, it is not the entire campaign. We've had vaccine requirements for almost 100 years to work, go to school, travel, etc. Given how much deadlier this virus has been, and how much suffering it has caused, I see no issue with requiring it for everyone eligible. You don't want to get the jab, you don't have a job where you interface with the public....learn to code, bitch and stay home. If you're one of the unfortunate minority that has a negative effect: #1, it beats dying from COVID and #2, sometimes you have to take one for the team and #3, we don't have a lot of controlled evidence that it was solely caused by the vaccine (again, "I got sick from the vaccine while I was drinking turpentine and brushing my teeth with engine grease."....not exactly isolated variables to establish causation. There's lots of issues with scientific debate and dissent: what T-rex's arms are for...is Pluto a planet....nature vs. nurture....The "debate" around vaccine mandates seems to echo the "debate" on climate change: unscientific, propagandandized, and driven at best by anec-data. There is an overwhelming scientific consensus that the vaccine is a safe and effective countermeasure.