I agree with everything you’re saying on principle, but realistically, how big do you think this narrowly defined group actually is at this point? The current outrage over Rogans started with those two recent guests. The following factors would need to be 100% true for this group to even exist: They’re unvaccinated; Were still fully intending to get vaccinated; Had their minds changed by a podcast. Those three criteria need to bet met for “harm” to also exist. With the vaccines having been generally available for 9 months, I don’t see a large swathe of people fitting into this category. I don’t know if even 10 people would fit into this category.
I don't think it's as clear cut as "I was on my way to CVS to get vaccinated and then I tripped and fell into an old Sony Walkman that just happened to be playing Rogan's podcast and then I decided not to get vaccinated" but there's a clear reduction in the vaccine uptake rates compared to pre-pandemic times for things like MMR, polio, etc. This demographic is widespread enough that politicians are catering their rhetoric to them; before COVID you couldn't find a politician that was even tacitly anti-vaccine, and now you can't walk five feet at CPAC without bumping into one.
I know it’s not that simple, that’s the point. But if the specific claim is that a meat-head podcaster has recently caused “harm,” then I want to see something pointing to that “harm” other than assumptions of its existence. People had their minds made up a long time ago about vaccines, COVID or otherwise. I think we’re drastically overestimating the impact.
I think that, like pollution, he's "contributing" to it. He's pumping those noxious info-fumes into our collective media atmosphere, and while it's hard to assign specific causal blame to his actions, it's not that hard to assign collective statistical harm to them. People focus on Rogan because his bullshit factory has the biggest smokestacks.
I don’t know what “collective statistical harm” means, is he directly responsible for people not getting vaccinated or not? We can draw a clear line to people that are directly impacted by pollution and climate change. I can’t make that claim about a podcast, individually or in some extrapolated form. I’m not saying it doesn’t exist anywhere, but the media is spending a lot of time being sad about something that’s based on next to nothing. Either way, I don’t give a shit about Joe Rogan, but it’s a strange target for so much ire.
FWIW, Rogan lost me as a listener when he dipped his toe into political waters with Bernie, Alex Jones, and Andrew Yang. "Trying to get him shut down for letting the wrong people talk" sounds a lot like a persecution fetish to me. I think he's front and center of this right now on purpose. It hasn't hurt his brand in the least, has it? It's gotten him a lot more attention that getting high on DMT and hunting bigfoot.
I know you know this already, but to keep up the facade of civility...Nett brought up an point I made from dozens of pages back and applied it to this new line of discussion. I was pointing out the context that the previous discussion was being had in. And you know that, so let's try on paper at least to limit the snark. The Earth is obviously not flat; our opinion on that changed over time. One of the contentions I have with this whole discussion is that there will be a specific point (ie the virus was created in a lab; you can still get Covid after being vaccinated, etc) made, and the individual or group who says it is vilified, then eventually it turns out to be true, then everyone acts like it was that way all along. There's nothing wrong with changing a procedure or opinion when the situation on the ground changes; it's a dickhead move to act like it's always been this way, and weren't you stupid for thinking otherwise. No kidding. Know what they call the guy who graduated last in his class at medical school? Doctor. There's a whole variety of people working in the field, and a big chunk of them are likely ill-informed. Also, not for nothing, but at least in Ontario any doctor who speaks against the Covid vaccine in any way (privately, on social media or in their practice) faces disciplinary action and potentially a loss of license. So the amount of doctors preaching anti-vax information is small; but so is the pool of doctors who would be willing to risk that kind of consequence. As an aside, I'm not even sure at this stage what we're arguing about. I don't know how many times I can state that I'm personally vaccinated and I think that almost all adults are best served getting the shot. If the fact that I don't also support draconian measures that damage the economy for generations and potentially add to the death draws this kind of vitriol, I'm unsure how this board would handle someone who is actually anti-vaccination. Who is the demographic you're trying to push this on? The entire country is masked and we're at 88% of eligible people with at least one shot. The pharmacies can't keep up with the demand, and we're apt to hit 95% in the next few weeks without breaking a sweat. The problem is that it IS a global phenomenon; so how are you going to control it elsewhere? You've been to these countries...rural Africa and Asia and places that have almost no infrastructure or healthcare system. It won't be brought to heel there for YEARS, if ever, so a better solution would be living with it as a risk that's out there and moving on. Bolster the healthcare system, don't make the choice to get vaccinated political and try to convince as many people as possible to get a shot. Oh, and hope that the shot covers the variants to some satisfactory degree. This presumes that we know the solution and can control for the unintended consequences. Like Juice says...what can you measurably attribute to a guy like Rogan? Podcasts aren't the problem; making this entire thing political has done far more damage than Joe Rogan talking to Robert Malone for three hours ever could. Having a mainstream media that hasn't been trustworthy for years has also done way more damage than the Weinsteins or Ben Shapiro. The question I worry about way more than catching Covid is, "When this is 'over,' whatever that means, how do we go back to a functional civil society when one side hates the other?"
But, hasn't the demographics that made up anti-vax movement pre-pandemic, post-pandemic, completely flipped? Pre-pandemic anti-vax people, from my observation, were liberal, and likely voting liberal.
Pre-pandemic there was a small segment of crunchy granola types who thought that vaccines weren't "natural." Amusingly enough I'm doing a watch of ER, which was made in the 90s-00s, and there was an episode where an anti-vax mom comes in with her sick kid and the kid dies. She's clearly coded as a well-off liberal type. Those folks still exist, but their numbers are dwarfed by the new incursion of the conspiracy-theory right into vaccines and public health. All the "Obama is a Kenyan Muslim" types found their new cause in "Fauci developed coronavirus in a Chinese lab." It's largely the same destination, but a totally different path to get there, and their numbers are a lot bigger.
I think that tiny percentage of "vegan left wing nut who won't vaccinate their kids" is still present in the isolated echo chambers that they were in before. Just like I think that the "religious right wing nut who won't vaccinate their kids" is still present in the isolated echo chambers that they were in before. I just think that there is an even larger new chunk of people who bought in so heavily to the "it is just a flu" and "if you are healthy you'll be fine" line from the republican establishment who can't fathom getting vaccinated because their worldview is so heavily based around "the other side is wrong for ineffable reasons" and changing their minds feels like a weakness. I think that group also needs to feel oppressed/persecuted because they have been spending their entire lives dismissing marginalized/oppressed/persecuted people by saying "I'm suffering too and I get nothing so why should you?" Things like vaccine mandates, mask requirements and isolation/quarantine helps fulfill their underdog fantasies. They are kind of fucked when it comes to their worldview, because they can't change their minds because it will make them look weak and they can't listen to authority unless it is coming from their "side" and if the authority on their "side" changes message then they will find new authority figures who tell them what they want to hear because "flip flopping" is weak. If Joe Rogan today went on his podcast and say that he now finally understands the harm he has been doing and he will from now on change his ways because he doesn't want to cause any more harm his fans will abandon him, call him weak and threaten him for being a traitor for opposing their worldviews. I think that is a very big problem that is faced by any public figure who is popular with people on the right side of the political spectrum. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen to people who have a ton of left leaning fans, just that it is an orders of magnitude bigger problem with people whose fans are on the right.
Biden, Harris and other top level Dems went in front of a camera and said they wouldn't trust a vaccine from the Trump FDA. That kind of messaging and flip flopping? It's very silly to think that knife doesn't cut both ways.
1. There was a real risk that Trump would engage in some fuckery to try and win the election, that's all Biden and Harris were referring to. They clearly stated that if the relevant health authorities approved a vaccine they would take it. 2. Their audience understood this, as there has been no widespread vaccine hesitancy by Democrats claiming that they were told not to take the "Trump vaccine".
You mean these series of quotes from Biden and Harris? https://www.politifact.com/factchec...harris-doubted-trump-covid-19-vaccines-not-v/
My problem with Rodgers is that he flat out lied about being vaccinated. If he had just said no comment or admitted that he hadn't been and left it at that I wouldn't care in the least. As long as you don't spout nonsense about the vaccines I don't care anymore.
Well we all know Rodgers doesn’t have two pricks. Because isn’t vaccinated. So he’s free of genetic mutations, unlike those of us who are.