I am obviously not American, buy my deal breaker issue for a politician is abortion and women's reproductive rights. The second he said he'd reverse Roe vs. wade, he lost me. Not that he ever had me, but that was the "quit even listening " moment.
The look that Melania gave Hillary during some of those jokes makes me think that the secret service better up their game... she wanted to fucking kill her. I would definitely pay to attend that event.
I honestly don't get this. Like, at all. We've had the right to abortion for a long time in this country and even if he overturns it (which I doubt) there would still be several states that permitted. The thing is, it's viewed more like gay marriage than something that pertains to an actual amendment. The supreme court can argue that the constitution does not permit abortion, they cannot argue that it bans abortion. So it would be a pain to get abortions depending on where you are, but I sincerely hope it isn't such a common occurrence that this would be an everyday concern for any woman. What I really find strange about this, however, is I don't see how women's rights can be an overriding issue compared to foreign policy, the debt, the economy, comprehensive health care reform, or any of the other major issues. How easy it is to get an abortion is your big thing? Are women so unequal under the law (read: not at all unequal) that women's rights should sway elections to the degree it does? I just find so much fear mongering whenever the woman's rights topic comes up. I know you're not American and can't vote in this election anyway, but I was legitimately curious to see why it is that women's rights supersedes everything else for some women. I've never met a guy who was a single issue 'children's custody' voter, or anything like that. And yes, yes, I know people can vote however they want. I'm just curious on this issue.
The fact that you can't fathom why I view my body as a more intimate and pressing concern than I do the economy or trade agreements speaks volumes. I'm not sure if everyone realizes how common pregnancy and pregnancy issues are for women. I'd bet large amounts of money that every sexually active woman you know - your mother, your wife, your sister, etc - has at some point sought some kind of ob/gyn service. Whether to terminate a pregnancy or have surgery for a miscarriage or even sweat through a week when you were terrified you might be pregnant. I'd also bet that no matter how old she is, the woman can tell you how long ago it was or how old the baby would be. So yeah. It's a hugely fucking personal issue, and it's far more immediate and pressing than worrying about lobbying reform or senate activities. If I'm triaging issues, it's at the very top of the list.
So basically you're just calling me a misogynist. End of. Ok, then. Just know that this is why 3rd wave feminism has the worst branding of any woman's movement in history. There are plenty of women who view abortion as an important issue, but it is not THE issue for them, especially when it would be virtually impossible for the president to impose anything near a nationwide ban. That was my point, not that I want the government inside your uterus. And I was not saying someone was wrong to vote that way, I was curious as to why it supersedes all else. "My body" is kind of a lazy explanation, but so be it if that's what drives you...
Fuck it I'll take the bait, this makes you a fascist, simply put. When individual freedoms and rights are neglected for national interest thats fascism. Every right and freedom you hold can be taken away with that logic.
Also, I encourage you to read some of the stories women and girls have shared about abortion being a "pain to get access to." They are horrific. And sure, it might only happen once in your life, but that time you had to fly from New Jersey to California to undergo a second trimester termination because the fetus was dead and your state doesn't have a doctor that can do it, but that trauma is a lifelong thing. Every measure should be taken to avoid it, because women's physical and emotional health is at risk.
That's why I'm so militant about safeguarding them. Because they can be so easily dismissed or skimmed over, since those rights and procedures don't affect half the population. Also, as Clutch said, lots of people have said that gun rights are their make-or-break issue, and no one calls that philosophy out. Yet I post something similar regarding reproductive rights and immediately someone says, "I don't even get that." Again...this failure to see the issue for how much it matters to many women really bothers me.
If I thought it was going to be banned outright, I would feel the same way. In fact, it would probably be enough to sway me away from Trump. The point was, the states can (and many will) legalize it. [That's after a major if in the supreme court overturning it, which historical precedence suggests those attempts will fail.] They don't have to respect a constitutional decision on that. It just says they don't have a choice to refuse to ban it. I am firmly pro choice. If I was arguing that abortion should be outlawed and women thrown in jail then that would be facist. And we've had many discussions on here about gun rights and why people have those stances. That's not something that's ignored or automatically treated as legitimate whatsoever. And again, I was NOT saying that anyone was crazy, or wrong, or what have you to take that as a priority. I was merely asking why it is THE priority, which DCC just posted about. Edit: I was not thinking about health complications in late term pregnancies, which I don't personally see any state banning, but yeah, if you think that would happen it's a major concern.
Kansas, Oklahoma, Mississippi and Alabama are four states I can think of without looking into it that would ban it outright. No question. They'd do it now if they could, these people are more interested in a baby born, couldn't give a fuck about a baby fed.
As I've said before on here, my wife and I are currently trying to have our second child. What I have not mentioned, because it's private and not funny or relevant, is that she is having fertility issues. I'm only mentioning this now because maybe this will hit home for you (you Kampf, not Dcc). Or if you don't agree with it, hopefully at least you'll recognize our right to make women's health a political priority. For my wife and I, we've done the tests, it isn't me so much as she's having some issues. First thing I said when we got the news was "ok so we go to africa and adopt a baby then! Maybe it'll even be an obama relative!" She's preferring the IVF route. As it is we're still trying the natural way for a while longer, maybe 6 months before we start to seek other options. And with those options come risks, both to the mother, to the baby, and to the family if something were to go wrong with the baby in the womb. As an example, with IVF there is an increased chance of multiple fetus. My wife is about 125 soaking wet. My son was a pre-me simply because her body couldn't carry him any longer. Also, you have to consider your circumstances financially -- more kids means more mouths to feed, and in general their quality of education, housing, quality of life. The more you have, the more those financial resources get spread out. We could make it right now with 3 or 4 kiddos, but to what extent? At what point does the right to quality of life to the existing children outweigh the right to life of the unborn children?... We are also both firm believers in testing for diseases and disabilities as much as possible pre-birth. I work with children who are developmentally challenged. I've seen the success stories you read on facebook, and locally I've been the reason behind many of them. And I absolutely, 100% certain would never wish that on any child or family. It is not a quality of life by any means, and even in the best case scenarios there are still incomprehensible financial and emotional tolls for their rest of that family's life. Serious as I am sober, I will absolutely fight to the death before someone in some government office tells my wife what she cannot do with her body or how we cannot live our lives as a family. Your right to do what you want with your body is the ultimate form of liberty, and if that isn't worth fighting for, I don't know what is.
This is merely a thought exercise on reproductive rights. Spoilered because it's way off topic, but relevant to the current discussion. Skip if you're already fed up of this line of talk. Spoiler This is obviously HUGELY off topic, but the discussion has drifted here. I've often wondered this: if they invented a technology that allowed a embryo or fetus to be transferred to another person, regardless of the new host's gender, what the implications would be on reproductive rights. How many men would volunteer to carry and bear the children that the woman - for whatever reason - did not want. Like a doctor saying, "Well, we can't abort, but we can transfer it to any other adult you can find who is willing." I'd wager that the only people who would jump at the chance would be women/couples experiencing infertility. Not many others would be super down to endure a pregnancy without any preparation, of if the fetus had deformities/diseases. Super duper in the weeds with this one. It's more a thought exercise to try and get you to imagine the complexities a problem pregnancy can bring. If you would not be willing to carry the baby you conceived with that one night stand, why should she?
As right leaning as I am, I really, really don't understand the whole anti-abortion stance. For my own personal choice, abortion simply as a form as birth control would be a hard no. But, when it involves the mother's health or the fact that the child would be born severely disabled, then yes I would agree with it, if it was my personal situation. When it's someone's else's situation, I don't see how or why the government should have a say. I read so many horrible news stories about unfit parents that do unspeakable things to their children that I can only imagine the scale of events like that if the abortion was illegal. Being aborted would actually be kinder then what they endure after being born. That's why I brushed off the idea that it could be outlawed earlier...I just can't believe that 50 years after Roe v Wade people still are trying to impose their personal beliefs on others. If you don't believe in abortion, don't get one. Just don't try to unilaterally impose your own personal thoughts on everyone else.
That's why I never liked the line "what to do with our bodies". It trivializes the actual issue, and is spitting in the face of men who have no say in it. I am pro choice. I don't like the idea that if I knock someone up I get no say in my potential child's future, but I recognize that there's no way to make it work by splitting the decision making between genders. I'm in favor of the man paying child support, regardless of whether he wanted the child because 1. You're a piece of shit if you don't automatically want to pay it. 2. It's an unfair burden on mothers. 3. It's bad for our society to not enforce some responsibility of parents towards children. You don't want to be a part of his/her life? If you're enough of an asshole that that's how you feel, then it's probably good you don't want to be around, but you still need to pay. The lack of recognition that all reproductive rights act against men, and pretty much have to tends to be ignored in favor of calling any guy an asshole if they did want to have a say. Which I personally don't. The way I phrased my first post probably came across as me thinking it's silly that women prioritize abortion, but I didn't mean it that way. I probably overestimated the impact states down the line would have in responsibly legislating that at a local level. Considering how crazy guys like Pence are it's probably true that legislators in the deep red states would push harder than just saying "not here" and "it's ok if you have health complications". I don't think Roe vs Wade will get overturned. The republicans have been trying for a long time, and they're losing support, not gaining. I'm not married and I've been fortunate enough to have never (at least knowingly) dealt with a partner having an abortion so I am very far removed from being an authority on this topic. Even so, I feel like the hearts and minds battle would be better fought if it was less accusatory. At least for myself, the pro choice side sounds downright creepy at times in how they talk about this issue. Not referring to anyone here. I've wondered at times if women are even aware that this issue sucks for men, and I think that's part of why much of the country is so firm in it's opposition, while saying it's because of their religion because that's much more comfortable than discussing their insecurity about lack of choice. The true religious fanatics can't be won over until religious fanaticism dies.
Before Nett or Juice crash this party, let's take a moment to pick up our drinks and carry them over to the Serious Thread. I don't want to pollute the sacred act of abortion with Donald Trump any more than we already have. Election talk: T-minus 45 minutes until the next SNL sketch about the election debates. So excite.
I, like many, see things pretty much that way. I never debate abortion, and avoid the topic whenever I can. It's a keep-your-fucking-beliefs-to-yourself topic. Also like many, I don't get how it seems the crowd that so harshly opposes abortion also often seems to harshly oppose welfare families with lots of kids. Too many people seem to love babies only before they're born. After they're out of the womb, fuck them.
Until 2003 it was illegal to have gay sex in 14 states. People will always try to impose their personal beliefs on others. I understand why people oppose abortion. I don't agree with them. But I understand.
Just voted. The dude behind me was questioning the people running the booths what measures they take to make sure the results aren't tampered with and if they were required to undergo background checks themselves. I can't believe this is really a thing.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/analysis-by-voter-group-finds-dead-people-likely-registered-in-indiana/ My dad lived in Hendricks County, Indiana, most of his life and moved to Indianapolis after he retired. He voted Republican all his life. Since he died in 2012, he has voted strictly Democrat.