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Elephants and Jackasses...

Discussion in 'Permanent Threads' started by Nettdata, Oct 14, 2016.

  1. Nettdata

    Nettdata
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    There are 2 things at play... the sheer numbers being brought in, tax paying or not, that use up services (fewer apartments to rent, causing huge increases in rent due to market forces, etc), normal growth increases not happening (housing is not keeping up with growth for a number of reasons, too many people, interest rates/mortgage issues, fewer houses being purchased, market/pricing shift).

    Then those that are not paying taxes are stressing the support systems, making it even harder for everyone.

    The long and the short of it is I think we let in way too many people way too fast, and they're concentrating in desirable places like here, not the rest of Ontario.

    It would help if there were some way we could enforce a more equal distribution of immigrants.
     
  2. downndirty

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    I mean, it won't be perfect, but sooner or later SOME government has to figure out a system that isn't predicated on perpetual growth driven by population. If anything, I see Japan driving a lot of the automation forward. Also, some of the political machinations to represent a generation wildly outnumbered are interesting to watch as well, as the over-representation of older Japanese folks has already derailed some modernization efforts. I agree immigrants to SK and Japan won't happen, and probably not to Germany either.

    I go back to the quagmire of the US, where huge numbers of immigrants are only part of the issue. The other is to adjust the systems that we use to that kind of influx and determining to what level we ask them to integrate. Our decline of community means that we don't have a great way of saying "this is America, and this is what Americans do" the way the French did when they mandated the removal of some headwear for id's, without that coming off as racist or a political issue. We simply have eroded our shared culture and norms to the point where everything is a political position. So, when it comes to integrating folks, it's a nightmare with things like translation services, much less cultural norms around things like elderly/child care that can get REALLY ugly.

    The way immigrants were distributed back in the day, hell, even the "40 acres and a mule" deal simply can't be replicated now and it's a shame. Both countries have tremendous space that's sparsely populated, and the suite of services that immigrants, especially refugees require, simply isn't there.
    .
     
  3. xrayvision

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    Does anyone know if Tester is on track to win Montana?
     
  4. Aetius

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  5. Binary

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    Question: do you believe the US has an "open border" in that anyone is allowed to enter the country and live here legally?
     
  6. GTE

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    No.

    Yes.
     
  7. dixiebandit69

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    So has anyone seen this picture of JD Vance in drag?

    Has he given any kind of explanation for it?
    Because that seems like some pretty damning shit for a Republican candidate.
     
  8. Aetius

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    Obviously he was trying to infiltrate an elementary school library to rescue the children from the pizza. Or something.
     
  9. Revengeofthenerds

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    there are now multiple pictures. I don't care that the dude is wearing women's clothing -- I assume for a halloween party or something. I care about the hypocrisy of his current positions against that.

    And to answer your question, no he has not acknowledged it.
     
  10. downndirty

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    I'm curious what the scope of this problem is. Like, why do you think the illegal immigration is such an issue, and how widespread and profound is that issue?
     
  11. Juice

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    Wish you weren't so transphobic.
     
  12. GTE

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    Yeah, I'd say the population of New Jersey coming across the border every 3.5 years is a widespread and profound issue.
     
  13. Binary

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    I ask because you quoted something and said that it seemed like a sensible border policy, but Canada's immigration policy isn't very different from the US.

    You aren't allowed to just move to the US for no reason. There are special skills immigration pathways, same as Canada. A lot of the people crossing into the US are doing so on varying kinds of humanitarian programs, which Canada also has. Some of those people come into the country legally but then skip their hearing date and just stay here. Canada also has a problem with people entering legally but then not leaving again.

    What Canada doesn't have, is a large border that represents the closest possible "first world" haven for an entire goddamn continent. If you want to immigrate to Canada under a humanitarian program, you have to fly there or cross all the way over the US.

    If Canada and the US traded places with the exact same legal policies in place, Canada would be dealing with very similar volumes of immigration, because they have very similar humanitarian immigration policies and would be dealing with the same geographical problems. It has nothing to do with a "sensible" immigration policy like the federal skilled workers program.

    I'm not sure I have enough objective, science-backed knowledge on this topic to have a nuanced argument about how good or bad immigration is, but I will say that I'm not sure illegal immigration is the issue that most people seem to think it is. Illegal immigrants who end up with (non-under the table) jobs pay taxes on many social programs they have no effective way of collecting on. It's not clear that crime rates are negatively impacted. Is there something in particular that you find troubling?
     
  14. GTE

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    I don't have an issue with immigration. But, allowing ~3,000,000 people a year to enter willy-nilly doesn't seem like the best idea.

    Shit, some of the most patriotic people I know are immigrants or first gen US citizens and immigration is vital to the US.
     
  15. SouthernIdiot

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  16. downndirty

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    "Allowing" people to enter illegally is kind of an oxymoron. I suppose we could ramp up enforcement, and having worked the border crisis off and on, I'm not opposed to it.

    The most common form of illegal immigration is people overstaying a tourist or student visa. Frankly, I have no issue with that. The most politicized illegal immigration is border crossings, and I agree it's an issue, it's a trickle compared to the illegal immigration coming through airports completely undeterred.

    3 million people a year, out of a population of 330 million also doesn't seem like a huge deal, considering most of these folks do indeed go home at some point.

    The thing I'm pestered by is the perception of illegal immigration as a net loss for us. My belief is that most of the folks coming here do so with an intent to work, and that results in some odd benefits, like an over-funded social security fund (I know, the Republicans spent that surplus already). In NoVA, the asylum seekers definitely have a harder time working, and there's no end to the complaints about their children in public schools. I view the work issue as a fundamental flaw with minimum wage and labor rights here: in the early 2000's, it was great for tradesmen to come over, build, send $ home and retire. Now it's refugees who don't necessarily have a trade, but can learn a language and some basic job skills, but will never earn enough to live independently of some form of assistance.

    The issue with immigration always seems to be boiled down to labor, as we're not short of space, and while housing prices are stupid high, it's just not part of the rhetoric. If we fixed some of the labor issues in this country, then all of the sudden would illegal immigration be an issue? Ie, if we made it so that someone working full time could generally afford rent and child care, would we give a shit anymore?

    What are the harms visited upon us by 3 million illegal immigrants?
     
  17. Juice

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    Are we trying to gaslight ourselves into thinking immigration doesn't matter? You can't just fix it by putting more border patrol up on some wall. It needs to be done cooperatively without political concern. First step is getting Mexico to stop sending refugees from Honduras and Guatemala north to the US border. Asylum requires that refugees accept the offer from the first country that gives it to them. Mexico has started to cooperate on this. As far as whether we need to control it, absolutely. Immigration enforcement is important for security concerns, but in both directions across the border. The concept of a terrorist making their way across the border isn't fearmongering, its a legitimate concern. Plus, we should feel an obligation to enforce border laws based on humanitarian concerns.

    A lot of people that cross do so via cartel-run human trafficking routes in horrible conditions, if they survive it at all. Plus the drug trade. Cartel trafficking through the border is a major issue. Regardless of what you feel about recreational drug use, this is not the way it should be permitted or supported. Drugs crossing is not the only associated issue either. Cartels get much of their weaponry via arms-for-drugs deals provided by corrupt American police/federal agents that send arms to the cartels, or at least get enough money to look the other way.

    So I think we want to be a nation open to immigrants, we should at least make the crossings safe and orderly so they don't die in some steel container or get raped by the people helping them cross. Having a sound immigration policy doesn't make us anti-immigrant.
     
  18. downndirty

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    My data may be out of date, but by far the most common source of illegal immigrants is folks flying to Canada and coming down. The Mexican border is an issue, sure. The folks from central America are an issue I know well, and the Mexican government has the same set of issues we do.

    No argument that the border crossings are a problem. But they are a small part of the whole illegal immigrant picture. The larger picture resembles more of the same kind of illegal immigration every nation has: folks permitted legally that over stay their visa.

    The system needs revamping, and I think it should be done now. There's about to be a flood of climate refugees as the less developed parts of the world struggle with climate change.

    I think this issue is wildly overstated, both from an impact standpoint (immigrants and jobs), and from a security standpoint. It's not nothing, and it needs reform. It's also not nearly as high a security priority as the misinformation, smuggling through our ports that we stubbornly refuse to deal with, and home grown terror.
     
  19. Juice

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    Sure. It's not zero-sum or anything, we can address it all. We just don't have the will to weather the political storm in doing so.
     
  20. dixiebandit69

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    3 million per year. It's not just a one-and-done deal.

    It seems like the only people who don't think illegal immigration is a big deal are those who work white collar jobs.

    Flooding a nation with cheap labor devalues blue collar jobs.

    There's a reason why blue collar jobs pay significantly less South of the Border Patrol checkpoint.