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Elephants and Jackasses...

Discussion in 'Permanent Threads' started by Nettdata, Oct 14, 2016.

  1. downndirty

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    At a high level, I agree, the accusatory and disrespectful rhetoric must be toned down. There are Republican policies that I can get behind, and I think there's a definitive advantage for Republicans in the local election (governmental NIMBYism?).

    Well, calling someone stupid is the default reaction for ignoring studies, science, data, logic, etc. when it comes to things like effective ways to address the drug problem, teenage pregnancy (abstinence only, really?), reproductive rights, climate change, economic policy, etc. Today is a great case in point: Healthcare costs are rising? Kick people off insurance and reduce the funding for the one game in town that fights to keep costs down!

    Republicans have a reputation for putting their head in the sand on a number of issues, and somehow doing so benefits their donors and fucks over the majority of their constituents. I'm genuinely struggling to think of a major policy decision in the Bush years that benefited a person making $35k a year that wasn't in the military, and I would be shocked if someone pointed out a Trump policy that genuinely benefited the bartenders, nurses, truck drivers, and unemployed factory workers that elected him.

    In short, calling George Bush an idiot isn't the same thing as calling Barack Obama a Muslim.
     
  2. Kampf Trinker

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    It feels like we're just in such a weird dichotomy between the parties right now. On average I tend to agree more with the democrats, but if you give them enough rope there is just no end to amount of stupid shit they will do, and the republicans simply don't want to do anything at all.

    He axed TPP, which was pretty important. That would be about it though....

    Well, the whole "They go low, we go high" isn't actually a thing. "They go low, we go lower" would be much more accurate. As cunty as the democrats act though, I don't think it's the biggest problem. The over-emphasis on the 'war on women' nonsense and other miscellaneous crap most people don't care about is what's hurting them. The labor party in England is suffering from similar problems. Hillary was a uniquely horrible candidate in a lot of ways, but that aside, every time I watched her events that was all her and the other speakers talked about. "Racism is bad, love is good, stronger together, blah blah blah." I really do think they have a better platform, but they tend to stress the wrong points at the wrong times.

    That's why I think climate change could be a huge swing voter issue in 2020. It's one of several issues where democrats can win voters over.
     
    #3302 Kampf Trinker, Jun 22, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
  3. audreymonroe

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    Well, he was literally less popular than one of the most unpopular candidates in history. The Republican presidential candidate has won the popular vote once in the past 25 years and they're very open about their voter suppression tactics being fueled by being scared that more people voting in general means more people voting for the Democratic candidate, and their reliance on gerrymandering for getting/holding seats. Yet the driving narrative still seems to be that no one likes the Democratic candidates or what they stand for.
     
  4. Rush-O-Matic

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    I hear more of "at least half the country doesn't like Democrats, and that shouldn't be ignored." But, sure, like everything else, the talking heads / media / loud politicians want it to be words like "everyone" and "no one." It'd be nice if enough of the elected leaders would spend more time promoting the things we agree on or can at least find common ground, instead of intentionally seeking those issues that divide.
     
  5. Juice

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    Well there were really two Democratic candidates this past cycle, and the likable one got fucked by his own party.
     
  6. shimmered

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    I try to engage those people on the policies affected by their beliefs. Genuine discussion about how to shape our country in a way where both sides give and get some is pretty rare.
    The thing is - it's exceedingly difficult (in my experience) to engage on capital punishment, or abortion, with someone whose belief structure is based on emotion or religion. When it gets down to the nutcut it sounds like "I just don't believe in ______ because god" and the rational aspect just goes out the window.

    Biden was asked how he reconciled his religion with being pro choice and he explained that his religion is his, and he can't force someone else to abide his beliefs. (In effect, that's a paraphrase.)
    I wish more religious folk were so inclined.
     
  7. Nettdata

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    I remember seeing that interview and was incredibly impressed with him. For all the jokes, the guy seems like a pretty solid, rational dude.
     
  8. Kampf Trinker

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    I am very curious what would have to happen for the democrats to stop acting like the world is cheating them and start admitting that they're fucking up.
     
  9. audreymonroe

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    Do you think that any of that was false?
     
  10. Kampf Trinker

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    The democrats gerrymander as well when they can, and the most common voter suppression complaint is around ID laws. I don't have a lot of sympathy towards acting like really basic shit is super hard because of 'insert institutionalized ism'. The rules to winning the electoral college aren't a big secret...

    I don't really know what democrats hope to accomplish with complaining that it was all unfair every time they lose, but have at it.
     
  11. Aetius

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    I tried to do the same thing, and what I found was that any conservative that was smart enough and open minded enough to have a real discussion with was smart enough to see what a useless jackass Trump was before I even got there.
     
  12. GcDiaz

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    There is nothing you can say to them about Trump that they either 1. don't already know, or 2. won't immediately rationalize as a means to an end. The world done changed, the rug pulled out from under them, and they want it back to how it was before.
     
  13. downndirty

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    By that logic then, they are beyond hope.

    As tempting as that can be (Jesus Christ), we can't wait for just under half the population to "get woke" or die off.

    I suppose the biggest thing I've done with my friends/relatives from the South who are as red as can be is A) get this shit off of Facebook and not let politics intrude on our otherwise pleasant interactions, B) discuss policy not people and C) genuinely be open-minded about issues.

    There are plenty of Conservative slants that I'm keen on: gun control, crime, immigration, government waste, tax reform, etc. But they have to be policy-driven and I want an honest discourse on them, not skewed by studies funded by lobbyists, or rhetoric ramped up to 11 by cunty pundits (my new favorite phrase), or Fox News bullshit. I think so much of conservative policy is simply designed to cut the throat of a functional government in favor of corporations, and that as we have seen in the Bush era, doesn't end well. 90% of the conservative policies I've seen fail the "follow the money" test: they are driven to make someone more profits, not benefit constituents. A huge percentage of liberal policies do precisely the same, but not as high a percentage.

    We also have to recognize the incredible differences between an area like Baltimore, Birmingham and Bumfuck. The way people look at issues from Bumfuck is fundamentally different, and if we don't try and understand their worldview (embrace what's factual about it, accept what's influenced by their traditions and emotions and correct what's bullshit) we won't get anywhere. This fucking tug of war is a losing game and the only people winning are the ones profiting from it (again: qui bono?).

    I also go back to the 10x bullshit rule: if something is bullshit, it takes ten times the effort to refute it. So, how long will it take for us to recover from the damage done by entities like Fox News, Trump's tweets, Alex Jones, etc to JUST DEFLATE THE RAGE?
     
  14. audreymonroe

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    That may be the most common complaint, but there's also restricting deadlines and qualifications for voter registration, the Crosscheck voter purging, restricting early voting, and reducing the number of polling places and voting hours (or blocking their expansion), all of which target people who aren't white, young people, college students, hourly workers, and the elderly, who are more likely to vote democrat (some of those groups more than others). Of course, they're not going after restricting absentee ballots, despite most of the very few voter fraud cases being done via absentee voting, because those are more likely to be Republican votes. My original post had nothing to do with how that makes things more difficult for Democrats at the polls, though, and everything to do with the irony of the attitude that the country is skewing toward Republican values when such a hefty amount of their political strategy is trying to reduce the number of voters because they're afraid if more people vote they'll vote Democrat. So they focus on squashing the entire democratic process.
     
  15. Nettdata

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  16. Aetius

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    The fact that they didn't send the Tom Brady sketch artist is an insult to democracy.
     
  17. Rush-O-Matic

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    Personally, I think what Spicer / Trump are doing is dumb. But, based on this comment in that CNN piece:
    Not unique to the Trump administration, but today there a jillionity-billion "news" outlets, some more credible than others. They are all competing desperately for eyeballs and page views and hits. So, they need some soundbite or clip to get that. All these serious issues get reduced to a press secretary speaking one line or misspeaking one line. Then, for the next 3-5 days, the administration or the secretary or whichever person was mentioned has to spend time doing a tour of the shows to explain what he or she meant by that. Instead of having a substantive discussion about policies. Every question seems to be a "gotcha" angle, in order to generate headlines. So, maybe that's the rationale, to temper some of that?

    I don't know.
     
  18. Nettdata

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    I think it's way, way more than that.

    In the past few weeks the administration has been publicly roasted because the statements at the briefing say one thing, then the President goes on TV or Tweets an exact counter to the briefing.

    This isn't about them controlling an out-of-context remark, this is about them controlling the fallout from Trump going off script. If there are no videos to go back to that prove them wrong, it never happened, right?
     
  19. Aetius

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  20. Kubla Kahn

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    While I do think that is a legitimate concern of modern news/politics. Trump's ability to not control his utterances negates any legitimate push back that could be achieved. The fuck would you tweet about secret recordings for, other than ego stroking put downs, when you should know god damned well it's going to cause a multi week agenda miring controversy? It's be great if there was a politician brash enough to calll the press on their bullshit and leave them nothing to hang you with. His uncontrollable personality is why I skipped the President line at the voting booth.