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Elephants and Jackasses...

Discussion in 'Permanent Threads' started by Nettdata, Oct 14, 2016.

  1. toytoy88

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    Alone in the dark, drooling on himself

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  2. GcDiaz

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    Well they saved all that money for guns and ammo before Obama took them, they've gotta blow it on something. NRA won't appreciate the competition tho.
     
  3. downndirty

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    Cut through the hyperbole and propaganda.

    North Korea is not stupid, nor are they crazy. The terrain, economics, discipline and identity of their military is vastly different than Iraq. There's a reason the country was split in 1953, the place is easy to bog down. Would we quickly dismantle their air force? Absolutely. Would the "war" be over in days? Not a chance.

    NK has spent much of the last 60 years preparing for an incursion, and inciting international responses from time to time. They might not be equipped, but they are prepared and it's a mistake America learned in Vietnam that preparation is more important. NK has set their own deterrents in place: mass bombing Seoul and populous parts of SK, using children/schools as cover, bombing Japan (this will cause Japan to retaliate, and instantly complicate any Asian coalition: Japanese imperialism is far from forgiven), and using their own population as a weapon. They have LEARNED how to build an insurgency, and we'd be stupid and careless to overlook that. Their tanks and missiles might be outdated...but their ability to wage a very distasteful, difficult war is not and anyone who thinks this is a traditional land war conflict is stupid. It's entirely possible that we'd essentially re-create the quagmire in the Middle East, with allies like SK and Japan as easy targets (as opposed to Israel). Again, the Kim regime has learned from other conflicts with the US, and they will go to war in ways that hurt us. They certainly don't intend on losing, even if we think it's a foregone conclusion.

    The fact that Kim still exists suggests that deterrence works, and he's not willing to risk it all. He doesn't believe the cult of personality shit (if he did, he wouldn't have killed his uncle or his brother) and most North Koreans don't either. What the average North Korean believes is a bit of a nuanced discussion. They aren't buying the "dear leader as a god" thing, at least not realistically. To them, it's similar to stores about Paul Bunyan. They do believe it's worse elsewhere and that the West means them harm. Given how things are in Russia and China close to the borders and how expats are treated, it's not at all unrealistic to think that.
     
  4. Aetius

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    While I agree the chance of conflict is low, here's the part that worries me:

    The current cease-fire is clearly the Nash equilibrium of this situation. The United States doesn't want to lose blood and treasure seeking regime change if they don't have to, and N.K. certainly doesn't want to experience an attempt at regime change by the US. Any conflict will result in both sides losing compared to the status quo. And yet we have both sides saber rattling to an extremely aggressive degree. This saber rattling is not aimed at one another, but rather domestically, as a political tool. Any time you use militaristic language and posturing to shore up domestic support, the risk exists that the population enamored with such rhetoric will begin to demand action on it. Trump especially may see the "costs" of action as bearable when weighed against the wishes of his base and the needs of his ego. I worry that the degree to which US policy reflects US interests will mirror exactly the degree to which US institutions can constrain its president.
     
  5. downndirty

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    I think the information imbalance is the biggest threat to the status quo. We simply don't have the means to gather intelligence on them and they have literally spend 60 years studying our foreign policy.

    Trumps trigger finger isn't itching on Korea, despite the rhetoric. He knows, or will learn in short order that any fantasy of a direct, conventional military engagement with North Korea is just a fantasy, and the reality is there is no glory or gold to be had there.
     
  6. Juice

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    I think he knows, otherwise he would have engaged by now. Theres a ton of classified data that i would imagine is far more serious than the general public knows. And as far as Guam, hes not wrong. If they did attack, we would have no choice but to respond harshly.
     
  7. downndirty

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    And as been so often repeated in the history of conflict: "If".

    That's just the thing: so much of our intelligence-gathering methods are digital now. North Korea is the one nation that's just about immune to that, so one has to question the quality of the intel.
     
  8. Aetius

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    Related to the meme posted on the last page: http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...apologizes-for-saying-north-korea-should-nuke

    This is why I tune out whenever I hear complaints about "being ignored" or "being disrespected" from the middle of the country. They've been wishing all manner of environmental, economic, and military disaster on the coastal states for as long as I've been alive. They've set themselves up as the "Real America" and gleefully crowed any real or hypothetical injury or ill-fate to befall the coasts. They bite the hand that feeds at every opportunity.
     
  9. Kubla Kahn

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    I guess you're being ironic since the middle of the country feeds the entire country? Also, lighten up Francis.
     
  10. Aetius

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    Talking about tax receipts mostly. As far as literal food, California is doing fine on that front.
     
  11. toytoy88

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  12. Aetius

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    So the CEOs of Under Armour, Merck, and Intel have dropped from Trump's council on manufacturing in the wake of Charlotte. Certainly there is a heavy PR motivation behind these moves, but I think it's also noteworthy in the fact that if they felt that a seat on the council was at all useful they wouldn't have done it. I think this is the real tide turning, albeit quietly and slowly: the American business community is starting to feel that Trump isn't good (or at least isn't necessary) for their improved economic outlook. Trump's support so far has leaned heavily on the twin pillars of anti-immigration sentiment among his rabid base, and the more traditional RNC policies of low-taxes, low-regulation that entice corporate America. We're starting to see signs that one of those pillars is crumbling; that business does not see him as stable enough or capable enough to deliver what he promised.
     
  13. downndirty

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    Said the same thing in the other thread....,but Under Armour just laid off about 300 folks in Baltimore, and missed their projections. They had no place on the manufacturing council and Plank was reaching. Merck's CEO was the single black guy, and it's not surprising why he left (and that ought to have more resonance). Intel is another one that has tenuous manufacturing domestically and has bigger fish to fry.

    All the same, I can't see Trump being good for business. Too unpredictable, too disliked, too antagonistic and too polarizing. Under Armour would have been pummelled by their core demographics if Trump tweeted an endorsement of them. That's risky, and there's no payoff (yet) for working with him.
     
  14. xrayvision

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    Anyone just see that dumpster fire press conference? Where he called the marching Nazis very fine people? And called the counter protesters the alt-left? As if not being a nazi is some form of extremism?

    Today was overt endorsement of white supremacy from the White House. And what do you know...
    IMG_7292.PNG
     
  15. GcDiaz

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    It's like he couldn't take it, couldn't handle the pressure of lying about something he *didn't* want, or pretending to be someone he's not. He blew his lid.
     
  16. Crown Royal

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    He will not lose support, this will not get him impeached faster, nobody will give a shit about this 24 hours from now. Repeat.

    Lots of people care that a stupid and degenerate piece of shit runs their country, they just aren't going to do anything constructive about it.

    EDIT: Looks like I was wrong. People are running absolutely rampant with their tweets right now.
     
    #3996 Crown Royal, Aug 15, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
  17. Aetius

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    Every time Trump goes off script:
     
  18. Tim

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    You can find this funny but this is our lives. And yours too considering we're still the leaders of the free world.

    That being said I'm saying mean things to the Trump kids on Twitter because fuck this. I didn't vote for this and he's a fucking embarrassment.
     
  19. downndirty

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    I'm wondering...when your president is an embarrassment only 8 months into his term, what can you do?

    It's almost like this is a stress test for democracy and it's time like this where I think "he literally might be doing the exact opposite of the right thing on purpose...either as a troll, or just to show us how fucking terrible a country we are." It's like he looks at his approval ratings as the inverse of stars on GTA..."oh yeah? Hold my drink, I can do worse."
     
  20. Rush-O-Matic

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    This is an interesting comment, and I only have anecdotal experience to color my opinion. And, I didn't vote for Trump, so I don't even have my own anecdotal experience. But, I don't think most of the Trump voters really care or actually are embarrassed. Those who reluctantly voted for him, because he was simply the Republican nominee, or because he wasn't Hillary aren't wishing they had voted Hillary instead. And, those who fully supported him and voted for him with a smile are getting exactly what they wanted. Those that think he's an embarrassment are either the ones who didn't vote for him to begin with, or those who held their nose and vote. And, the latter probably believes getting the rest of what they wanted in a President* outweighs any embarrassment he brings to the office. Unless that embarrassment starts costing them money or American lives or something, I don't see idiotic tweeting or staff upheaval or controversial bluster really moving the needle. In fact, it'll probably start resulting in a lot of yawning response.

    *I know a lot of folks that wanted "no more left agenda forced on me," which is why they supported Trump, and embarrassment or not, they're are getting, or feel they will get that for the rest of his term.