Elephants and Jackasses...

This is what I don't get. He has not, for one moment at any point in this campaign, acted presidential. Why would he start now? Where does this mass delusion come from that he's suddenly going to pivot away from literally everything that got him elected? What you see is what you're going to get. This is what half of America chose. It will not get better, if anything it will get worse as he starts to wear the power comfortably.

 

Lesser of evils, man. People can say they prefer Hillary, but there is no denying why some people didn't.

 

Who is going to snap out of it? The people that just had 8 years of obstructionism rewarded with total control of the federal government? Why would they change a single thing? As generally piss poor of a political party as the Democrats are, they are not the problem here, and the actual problem is just picking up steam.

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Trump was a bullying buffoon, but it was ok because reasons. People exercising their 1st Amendment rights to protest and they need to STFU and start acting like adults. You say Trump's bullying resonated with a lot of people but you categorically refuse to recognize that people protesting (for a variety of reasons) have legitimate reasons to be angry. Stop trying to act like you're the voice of unbiased reason when it's pretty clear to me you aren't.

 

I would love to get to a place where I could tear the Democrats apart for their terrible ideas and awful execution, I really would. But we can't put the window dressing on the house until we can get the right wing to concede that we shouldn't build the foundation out of marshmallow fluff. We're talking very basic acceptance of reality here. Look at who they just elected. This is not William F Buckley, hell it's not even Richard Nixon. They literally elected a television character.

 

5 people shot at Seattle Trump protest, shooter at large.

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...ice-responding-to-reports-of-4-shot-downtown/

EDIT: According to KOMO it may not be related to the protest.

"The shooting, near 3rd Avenue and Pike Street, does not appear to be related to ongoing Donald Trump protests in the area, though traffic from the protests most likely made te area more busy, police said"

 

On Reddit a poster make a comment about how Evangelical Christians, through their faith and interpretation of the Bible, honestly believe that acceptance of LGBT rights will literally bring about divine retribution for going against God's plan, often referencing the tale of Sodom and Gomorrah. I personally think that's batshit crazy, but I understand how powerful faith and religion are and how difficult it is to get people to reject their faith.

But let's look at climate change. The Right's position on climate change just leaves me completely flummoxed. If I, as a Liberal progressive, want to have a dialogue with the right on this issue how do I even begin? As I said in an earlier post 20 or 30 years ago the climate change partisan positions would likely be government intervention vs. free-market solutions, but as it currently stands with the Right categorically denying it even exists, how can I even engage with them at all? And given it's such a monumentally important issue for the entire human race, how can I take any other position than absolutism against the Right?

There comes a point where one side goes so far off the path there is no compromise possible: That side has to start coming back toward the path for a dialogue to even be possible, and if they refuse they have to be defeated.

 

I'm actually pretty aware of the bullshit the RNC tried to pull, and you're certainly correct about how it was even worse. As far as the DNC goes, one of the first conclusions I've come to is that the DNC leadership needs to go. This goes beyond Hillary; DNC leadership has been failing the party for the past 6 years.

Another thing that needs to be determined is how to bring the Bernie progressives that didn't vote for Hillary into the fold. There needs to be a discussion from both sides (Bernie progressives and mainstream Democrats) so we can come to an understanding and better work together.

 

I wonder if the people here, and elsewhere, who voted for Trump, are gloating about his win, or who are merely disappointed but don't understand why less than 24 hours in people aren't ready to get over it, move on, get along and start respecting our president have spoken with or taken the time to listen to the people who were most vulnerable in this decision. Do you know any of those people? I have a feeling a lot of the people who voted or feel that way do not. I have spent my day (virtually) with people who are scared that their marriages will be nullified, that because their marriages will be nullified that they'll lose their citizenship and be deported. With people who are working to bring their families here, to flee war-torn or impoverished countries, who are scared it'll be years before they see their families again, if they'll ever see them again. With people who Obamacare was a saving grace for (which there are many, myself included), who are scared of once again having to choose between their health, their life even, and their finances. With people who are scared that they will be able to access healthcare even if they are still insured. With people who fear that any progress on civil rights or trans rights will be reversed and regressed back decades. With people who fear terrorism for the first time because we have just proven to extremists that we stand exactly for what they think we stand for, and have justified their hatred of us. With people who've immigrated from Russia and from Germany saying "this is how it started with us too."

I have spent my day with people where Trump and his potential presidency were only one part of it, where what they truly feared and were truly disgusted by was his base, and what his election would validate and embolden people to do. With people who've talked about assault and harassment by KKK members in the weeks leading up to the election. With people whose homes and cars have been vandalized. With people who woke up to swastikas graffitied in their neighborhoods. With people who've had their scarves ripped from their heads today. With people who've been pushed into subway tracks today. With people who woke up to emails and messages and taunts on their way to work or school about how their time was coming or they were going to be gone soon or the country was finally taken back from them. With people who've had people screaming the n word in their faces today. With teachers and parents reporting on what children are saying in schools, of kids being beaten up and taunted, of Muslims and Jews quietly returning from the bathroom without their scarf of kippah, of LBGTQ students hiding. With people who have been chased down in the streets, or run off the road. With people who run crisis hotlines saying they haven't been able to keep up with the demand for their services today. With women who have been walking down the street past groups of men yelling about grabbing their pussy, joking about how they could do whatever they want and it doesn't matter, laughing about Trump will get to have even more women do whatever he wants and get away with it now.

This is all less than 24 hours in. We knew this is what Trump stood for and who he represented. Always. And the people who voted for him and are supporting him now may not have all been those people, but they wanted to focus on the "real" problems, they looked the other way and brushed all of these groups of people aside for what? For some it was a grievance for the economic struggles of Middle America, and they were too uneducated and/or too much of a sucker to not realize that Trump was not the man nor Republicans the party to help that. For many, it was this general sense of dissatisfaction and a desire to break down the system and start anew. So, for them, what's the plan now? What's the new system going to be? What does it look like and how does it work and who does it benefit? How does it start happening? Does it really start with Trump picking a cabinet that's, based on the names floating around full of friends and donors (pay to play is bad!), Wall Street execs (Wall Street being involved in politics is bad!), and career politicians (politicians being in politics is bad!!!)? What do we, as a people, do as our rights and freedoms and securities - and by that I mean actual rights and freedoms and securities, not "it's a little bit harder to buy a gun than I'd like!" or "I can't make a race joke without consequences!" - are dismantled to set up this new system? What do the politicians do and how do we get them to do it, when they're the ones benefitting from the system itself? I haven't seen any answers to these questions. I haven't seen them in a year and a half, and I certainly haven't seen them today. I'm genuinely listening. I'm prepared to go full Emma Goldman, but not until I know it's worth it, and not until anyone has even the slightest idea of what the fuck they think they're doing.

 

http://www.npr.org/2016/11/09/50145...paign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=202709

Here's a reminder of what he is shooting for in the first 100 days. I see some things in there I don't agree with but I see more that I like than I don't like. I doubt he can do half of it but at least it is a start. I guess at the end of the day, what I'm trying to say is it won't be all bad.

It sounds like it was quite a day. I don't live with those types of concerns but the most striking part of what you described is actually the negative interactions described. Pushing people on train tracks, assaulting people, lewd catcalling. I can't help but wonder why you live where you do if this is what goes on. I live on the outskirts of a city in the South and I have never been witness to this type of behavior. You should probably consider leaving such a horrible place.

 

None of that happened in NYC. I'm also wondering if I should leave such a horrible place of this whole country.

 

Well, it's a shame that people feel that way. That is up to the individual though. I don't know how things in America could have changed so drastically in the last 24 hours though, especially since we don't swap figureheads for two months yet. Personally, I've lived in a lot of places: Europe, Asia, Africa...and I can't say I've found some place as good as America yet. Then again, that is a personal decision as well.

Trying to keep perspective here when I say this; I have a lot of honest to goodness Republican friends that thought the world was going to end when Obama was elected. It didn't and I think if they were honest, they would say things haven't changed much. I have a lot of Liberal friends that have gone just as far off the reservation today as my Republican friends did making the same type of claims they did (in their own way) and I have a feeling that after it's over, not much will have changed either.

 

I know I said I wouldn't post in this thread anymore, but I think I can now, after taking time to digest this.

I am cautiously optimistic. It is my hope for each new president that they strive to be mentioned in the same breath as Lincoln, Washington or Roosevelt. I don't believe that Trump will reach those levels, but I hope like hell that he tries to.

I've read a lot and heard a lot about why Clinton lost. It seems to boil down to a couple of things. One, a general disgust with the status quo. The first one I get. I voted for Bernie, after all. Clinton was a relic from a time in politics when the DNC could coronate a nominee and make it seem legitimate. The DNC thought they could do it while having a spotlight on them and it pissed off independent voters.

Two, white people feeling marginalized by the left. I saw a comment that struck me as emblematic of this. At the bottom of some article about race, a white guy wrote that he was sick of being attacked for being white. He couldn't understand what he had done to elicit such vitriol from basically everybody that wasn't him.

I get it. Really. My wife is an ardent feminist. We've gotten into huge fights because it's her contention that I sound like a misogynist when I disagree with something. When I ask her to clarify her position, being told that it wasn't her job to explain feminism to me has resulted in me leaving the room before I went nuclear.

Now imagine being some unemployed person in a flyover state seeing stories online about record low unemployment rates while that person is still struggling. Meanwhile, you're reading Facebook comments from snotty liberals telling you that just because you're a white guy in Ohio, you're racist, or hate women. Why? Because expressed reservations about unvetted refugees or alleged malfeasance from a presidential candidate.

People got tired of being shit on and did a better job of organizing behind the reality television star instead of the Jew from Vermont. At this point, the left needs to decide how they want to act for the next two years. They can act like adults, mobilize their base, and start working towards solutions. Or, they can act like children, dig in their heels, and cry until they get killed in the next elections.

I hope they do the former.

 

I took the other path for the same reason.

Yep, and I decided I don't give a fuck. I'll explain as best I can.

I know some illegal immigrants. I don't talk to them today except for one guy sporadically, who's an American citizen himself. He has some family that are illegals that I've met. In Minnesota I had employees that openly admitted to me they got the job with a fake ID. I miss them, and know Trump might send them packing. Just because I know people doesn't mean the left is correct on this issue whatsoever, although it's better than Trump. On that issue.

I know plenty of women who believe in abortion and fully believe they should have that right. Hillary is better on this, but the alternative didn't bother me enough. I know women that have been sexually assaulted. It's kind of hard not to given how commonly it happens.

Same with gay marriage, if Trump even gives a fuck.

The foreign policy in this country has been wretched ever since 9/11. America is doing everything wrong. I can't name one meaningful thing they've done right. All they do is fuck up more and more, and I try to come up with an answer to "Where is it even possible to go from here?" It started with Bush and the war is his fault, but Obama is at best a little less awful. He shies away from certain terms that don't even matter while at the same time our bombing is murdering 90% civilians based on my evaluation of the data. They are arming the most awful people because they continually delude themselves on failed strategies. Every time they try to adjust the strategy they don't get any smarter. The people who live there have been made jihadists, largely by us and Obama did nothing to help. Obama funnels weapons to the middle east as a reaction to Arab spring, fearing further instability can lead to more ISIS. He doesn't realize the people he is arming aren't that different and the weapons he's donating are causing more harm than good. He is giving somewhat modern military technology to the worst people in the world in a chess game that has no victory, only more damage. Hillary loves that idea, and hey, if she can make some money off it too, why not?

As for the civilians themselves, well, once so many people you love are dying it becomes that much easier to believe in a fanciful nonsensical concept like radical jihad. Trump had no plan, he just pointed out the stupidity of the current plan. The fact that he realized its failures and openly stated them, FINALLY from a politician helped him earn my vote. What he said about the strategy of letting countries know what we're doing before we do it (to protect civilians, holy fucking insane) is something I couldn't have believed when I was younger. Even when we try to get the worst guys our strategy is so apparent we miss more often than we hit. It took a long time for me to lose faith and believe our government is actually that stupid, but they convinced me about 5 years ago.

I care about my fellow Americans, but I care about other people too and just seeing someone who was aware on this who could potentially have the power to do something about it and didn't spin it was satisfying. Watching what we are doing with 'good intentions' of which there is so little left (the people in power see it as a world wide chess game and Obama can't hide it, plus they suck at the game compared to our enemies)in our government is breaking my heart.

Trump kept repeating that he was going to bomb the shit out of ISIS to pander to the deplorables and I don't really care. Trump on this issue by a mile.

Other reasons are just the general dysfunction and corruption that are ruining the system that I've posted about quite a bit, and then the other issues where Trump's common sense was appreciated.

The left has gone full tilt wrong in this country. I mean the everyday people on the left, not the government(which is admittedly even worse). There is nothing they don't fuck up. So much of what they do is shaming and assuming the other person is an idiot. I can't disagree with a lot of leftists for two seconds without them thinking I'm a horrible person or that I'm brain dead. It's not name calling anymore, their mind automatically goes there and the sense of superiority they send my way is painful to watch. They're destroying themselves and forgetting about what they want to accomplish. Sure, I'm a white male, and I don't give a shit that it's becoming a slight pejorative. I have it good (money wise, birth status, whatever) relative to a lot of people and history is what it is. A lot of white males don't have it good. And the left is shaming everyone. Black republican? Shame. Gay republican? Shame. Female republican? Stupid and shameful. It's their answer to everything they disagree with. That's not even getting started on the crazy ideas and perceptions that are becoming ever more prevalent throughout the left.

The SJWs didn't bother me so much until they started taking over the media and radicalizing people.

We are gradually losing our civil rights and our souls, and all people do is blame the other side.

I could write 50 essays on the subject, but at some point you have to look into the horror that is this country and decide to separate. My vote for Trump is the best I can do right now, for whatever little one vote is worth. The argument for Hillary was fear, and I thought it over and rationally decided on anger. I'm not ready to die or let people in my family get hurt, but I'm nearing that point because things are really that bad. I considered waiting another four years, but Trump was my first breaking point on so many things that are terrifying about this country.

Maybe America doesn't look so bad to you, but that's not my life.

People saying things like 'voters chose a television character' are even crazier than I am.

When someone can rig a primary election and people shrug off the other side as stupid we have a very, very serious fucking problem.

I couldn't vote for Hillary because I can't cope with the fear of where this country is going anymore.

 

Yes, we have heard all of this from you many times before. So what about this: