Adult Content Warning

This community may contain adult content that is not suitable for minors. By closing this dialog box or continuing to navigate this site, you certify that you are 18 years of age and consent to view adult content.

Elephants and Jackasses...

Discussion in 'Permanent Threads' started by Nettdata, Oct 14, 2016.

  1. The Village Idiot

    The Village Idiot
    Expand Collapse
    Porn Worthy, Bitches

    Reputation:
    274
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2009
    Messages:
    3,267
    Location:
    Where angels never dare
    The analogies to Reagan and Hitler are both apt. The problem is everyone on this side of history sees Hitler for what he was able to get away with in total, but the slide was much more gradual than you might think. This is not to say the crazy was not there to see prior to his ascendency, it certainly was. But Hitler's initial rise to power basically revolved around telling a beaten and battered country whose economy was in shambles that they were great, and all these outside forces were responsible for their fall from some imagined graceful past. Sound familiar?

    Look, the reality is Trump did not appeal to the majority of public voters. He garnered about as many votes as Romney. The difference being that this election was about change - at any cost.

    Most Americans, as I've posted time and time again, are hurting. They are realizing that the American Dream is all but unattainable for them. In short, they feel less invested in society than ever before. They have lived under many Presidents on 'both sides' (in quotes because in actuality both R's and D's over the past 40 years have essentially enacted the same fiscal policies) since Reagan and their lives never seem to get better. At best, they are able to hold on to what they already have, and they fear what's going to happen to their children. And many already see what is happening to their children - playing by the rules, going to college, and still not getting decent work that they can feel good about. So they're mad because they believed, at least in part, the political system of the past 40 years. The jury is back, it isn't working, and they were faced with a candidate that promised significant, immediate, and beneficial change and a candidate that was established, whom also promised change. The believed one, maybe, but more importantly, gave a healthy fuck you to the system. As I've previously posted though, as we've seen over the last week, it will turn into a 'fuck me' very quickly.

    The comparison to Reagan is also apt. Reagan and Trump are both 'big idea' guys who leave it to others to work out the details. Reagan had competent people - for the most part around him - whom at least understood the nuts and bolts of governance. So far, what I'm seeing from the Trump team is a lot of incompetence. Kushner - one of the heads of the transition team - didn't realize that they have to replace the entire White House staff. The other head of transition, Pence, isn't stepping down as Governor, and is pursuing a lawsuit to keep some of his emails secret. Then we have Prebius, who has no governing experience, and Bannon, whom also has not governing experience of note, as the two main advisors. While some of these guys are insiders - they don't have proven track records. In fact, Pence, in 12 years in Congress, never got a piece of legislation passed. None. In 12 years. True, he is a governor, but like when he was a Congressman, it will require governing skills to get things through a Congress that while the same 'party' may or may not be on the same page on many issues.

    Ultimately, there will be an America in 4 years, but that America will either look precisely the same - thus leading to even more extreme candidates and potentially a challenge in a primary to a sitting President, or it will look worse in some fundamentally important ways. Not because Trump is necessarily 'evil' but he's a narcissist that is uniquely unqualified for the biggest job in the world, and has not surrounded himself to date with people that are qualified.

    There is a skill to governance. So in sum, yes, I get the anti establishment sentiment, but for me, Sanders was the guy because while he understood how to govern, he thoroughly rejected the establishment, and has most of his career.
     
  2. Juice

    Juice
    Expand Collapse
    Moderately Gender Fluid

    Reputation:
    1,451
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    13,955
    Location:
    Boston
    The Bernie Sanders hindsight bias is interesting. Many are now saying he would have defeated Trump or another Republican challenger, but I'm not so sure. That statement is based on a few early polls that took place during the primaries. As a repudiation of the system, the voters were also repudiating a perceived left wing bias in society. Everyone that criticizes Islam is a racist. Safe spaces. Black Lives Matter and the unquestioned adoration by the Democrats. The list goes on. I'm not sure how electing someone much further to the left of Hillary Clinton would be an effective strategy. Sanders had almost no foreign policy ideas or viable domestic policies other than socialist nonsense that would never make it out of Congressional subcommittees. If the Democrats move further to the Left, they will lose again in 2020.

    As for Sanders being anti-establishment, the guy has been in the game for over 25 years. That makes him the establishment no matter what the prevailing narrative says.
     
  3. Kubla Kahn

    Kubla Kahn
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    729
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    11,510

    Still a favorite of mine:
    [​IMG]




    While the rust best vote might have been repudiating democratic ideals, I still think the election came down to Hillary not being able to bring out her base by huge numbers compaired to Obama. If the dyed in the wool base showed up the rust belt Blue Dog democrats that ended up switching to Trump wouldn't have mattered. Impossible to know with any certainty that Bernie would have energized people enough to be the blow out people claim it would have been. While Republicans are solidly in control of the state legislatures, with shifting demographics Id still be worried on the national level since Republicans aren't going to get a hugely flawed rival every election.
     
    #1063 Kubla Kahn, Nov 15, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2016
  4. Frebis

    Frebis
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    344
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    2,516
    And as we all know, polls are very accurate. Especially this year.
     
  5. toytoy88

    toytoy88
    Expand Collapse
    Alone in the dark, drooling on himself

    Reputation:
    1,264
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2009
    Messages:
    8,763
    Location:
    The fucking desert. I hate the fucking desert.
    This is it exactly. I voted for Trump. I absolutely was not going to vote. I could not stand either candidate, but as the election grew closer, the more the regressive left and the media began to howl about "Racism!" "Sexism!" "Homophobia!" "Xenophobia!" because those are the only things they can see as the motivators for anyone questioning their version of "Tolerance."

    Disagree with Obama's politics? You're a racist!
    Concerned about border security? You're racist and Xenophobic!

    And on and on...

    For 8 years the regressive left has been poking and proding a bear and now they're surprised the bear woke up and was pissed off enough to actually vote for Trump. You can watch through the election cycle that the more the left fought and name called the more supporters Trump got. He wasn't getting supporters that agreed with him or thought he was equipped for the job. He was garnering supporters who were tired of all the safe spaces, finger snapping, white guilt, mansplaining, trigger warnings, "Only whites can be racist", no CIS males allowed bullshit that the left has shoved down our throats while completely disregarding any and every concern the opposite side has simply by dismissing those concerns as some ist or ism word.

    Jimmy James mentioned similar in his post a few nights after the election and he was pretty spot on recognizing what had happened. I'm actually surprised that more haven't caught on...the regressive left created candidate Trump and propelled him all the way to the presidency. Every single anti-Trump riot, every biased news story, every time the left dismissed everything as an ism or ist without addressing there might be an actual concern, that is why we have President-Elect Trump.

    No matter how shitty and unqualified he may be, if he can shut the regressive left and their hate spewing rhetoric up for four years, my vote was not wasted.
     
  6. Nettdata

    Nettdata
    Expand Collapse
    Mr. Toast

    Reputation:
    2,985
    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2006
    Messages:
    26,472
    This was a big point that Bill Maher made on his last show... if you haven't watched it, you might want to.
     
  7. Raskolnikov

    Raskolnikov
    Expand Collapse
    Average Idiot

    Reputation:
    6
    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2009
    Messages:
    69
    What is the regressive left? And this is an honest question, is it ok in your eyes if he is able to shut up the hate spewing rheotric from the left but allows it or increases it on the right?
     
  8. Trakiel

    Trakiel
    Expand Collapse
    Call me Caitlyn. Got any cake?

    Reputation:
    245
    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    Messages:
    3,167
    Location:
    St. Paul, MN
    So basically, feels over reals? People on the left are big bullies saying mean things to the fragile, sensitive, people on the right, so to punish those people on the left we're going to continue to pass laws that do a lot of harm to them? Because continuing to fuck people over is certainly the best way to get them to shut up, right?
     
  9. Nettdata

    Nettdata
    Expand Collapse
    Mr. Toast

    Reputation:
    2,985
    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2006
    Messages:
    26,472
    The other big takeaway that I seem to be seeing is that the Big Data crunching and garnering of the "online" and social media voter isn't worth shit... because they don't show up at the polls. They talk loud and strong in virtual space, but in reality are very weak. More of that vocal minority thing.

    I think that ties into the point that ToyToy makes.
     
  10. Nettdata

    Nettdata
    Expand Collapse
    Mr. Toast

    Reputation:
    2,985
    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2006
    Messages:
    26,472
    If you're constantly being hammered by the PC Police, and are constantly being told that you're the problem and that you don't matter (you white CIS male you), then yeah, you're probably going to vote for what is right for you, first and foremost.
     
  11. toytoy88

    toytoy88
    Expand Collapse
    Alone in the dark, drooling on himself

    Reputation:
    1,264
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2009
    Messages:
    8,763
    Location:
    The fucking desert. I hate the fucking desert.
    No, both extreme sides need to shut up. Contrary to popular opinion, I absolutely hate the white nationalist and their bullshit and I've actually had to deal with those ass hats face to face living in Mississippi and north Idaho. They were everywhere and every bit as annoying and maddening as the left extremists.
     
  12. toytoy88

    toytoy88
    Expand Collapse
    Alone in the dark, drooling on himself

    Reputation:
    1,264
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2009
    Messages:
    8,763
    Location:
    The fucking desert. I hate the fucking desert.
    No. Is it really that difficult to realize that if you constantly provoke someone you are eventually going to get a reaction? That's what happened.
     
  13. Trakiel

    Trakiel
    Expand Collapse
    Call me Caitlyn. Got any cake?

    Reputation:
    245
    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    Messages:
    3,167
    Location:
    St. Paul, MN
    Correct, which is why if you want people to quiet down about identity politics then maybe stop supporting people who pass laws that fuck people over solely because of their identity. You talk about provoking people, so let me ask you this: What would provoke you more, someone calling you an asshole or someone punching you in the face?
     
  14. toytoy88

    toytoy88
    Expand Collapse
    Alone in the dark, drooling on himself

    Reputation:
    1,264
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2009
    Messages:
    8,763
    Location:
    The fucking desert. I hate the fucking desert.
    Jesus man. You and others have been trying to figure out how the left lost. As someone who voted for the other candidate I gave you a very plausible reason why AND you still want to argue the point?

    You're not listening at all.
     
  15. Juice

    Juice
    Expand Collapse
    Moderately Gender Fluid

    Reputation:
    1,451
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    13,955
    Location:
    Boston
    If Trump does nothing else of value in his presidency, his candidacy did put an effective end to the two most power political families in one election cycle.
     
  16. Nettdata

    Nettdata
    Expand Collapse
    Mr. Toast

    Reputation:
    2,985
    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2006
    Messages:
    26,472
    Dude... he TOLD YOU WHY HE VOTED FOR TRUMP... and you're arguing that point.

    You may not agree with them, but how can you question what he's telling you his motivation was?
     
  17. Currer Bell

    Currer Bell
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    171
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    1,673
    I can sympathize with people wanting things to change, frustrated with the status quo. I really can. I can't sympathize with this:

    - the working class just want jobs and are sick of ivory tower types who don't understand them. So they elect a businessman, the very kind of person who has never understood them and that put them in their untenable positions in the first place.
    - white people are sick of people accusing them of being bigots when they really aren't bigots. So they elect a bigot who has surrounded himself with bigots. Because that will somehow convince the "PC police" that hey, they really aren't bigots after all.

    I know there's more, but these two things really just annoy the hell out of me. It's like those funny memes of someone seeing a spider so they burn the house down, except people decided to actually do it.
     
  18. Nettdata

    Nettdata
    Expand Collapse
    Mr. Toast

    Reputation:
    2,985
    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2006
    Messages:
    26,472
    I think it's more that there are two people, one is yelling at you and talking shit about you all the time, and one isn't, so you go with the one who isn't.
     
  19. Gravy

    Gravy
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    256
    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,715
    Location:
    The void.
    So in other words, people voted for Trump because he provides a safe space.
     
  20. Currer Bell

    Currer Bell
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    171
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    1,673
    I get that. It's just that from the point of view of minorities, it looks a hell of a lot like, "Oh man, all these minorities think I'm a bigot and I'm really not. They don't understand me! I think I will go hang out with this bigot who is just as annoyed with the minorities as I am. That'll show them!"