Since the legality of their residence is the issue in question using it as a fact toward any other criminality is circular reasoning and therefore invalid.
How about you state your position, then, so we're not talking past each other? Is your position that all illegal aliens should be deported and kept from re-entering the US?
I can debate. I think with the names that are floating around that a Trump cabinet is more likely to send us back to the 60s & 70s in regards to cultural issues than to move us forward. Get ready for a new civil rights movement that will be protesting voter suppression laws, discriminatory immigration laws, anti-LGBT laws and anti-abortion laws. I also think that all of his fiscal and economic policies will be failures for the middle and working class. The manufacturing jobs will not be coming back in large numbers and trade wars will only result in higher prices of goods, which will make life more expensive for everybody. He will probably be successful in reducing the tax rate, but no success in closing any loopholes. This will lead to a bigger deficit since a republican congress will be unwilling to cut defense spending. Social Security or Medicare may take a huge hit because of this. His economic policy is an extreme versions of trickle down economics, which has been proven to not work. Companies are not re-investing their surpluses now, why would they do so in the future? Executives only care about the stock price, and will only invest the minimum needed to keep the company growing. Wages will continue to stagnate and job growth will slow down now that we are out of the recession. If you voted for Trump I think you got duped.
Here is the problem, and the reason I have given up on being reasonable... the right wants the ability to say racist and sexist shit and not get called on it. That is essentially what this entire thing is boiling down too. Rational discussion is one thing, but what is the true basis of a lot of the immigration discussion? That immigrants are criminals or terrorists, and therefore need to be deported or not let in. Toy toy summed it up perfectly in his response. They are 100% of them criminals. That leaves zero room for discussion or negotiation. There is no gray area in that statement. Still, that is viewed by many as a "reasonable statement" and calling it out gets slapped down as being divisive. The people complaining about divisive rhetoric are the people USING divisive rhetoric, and complaining that they're getting called out for it by blaming the other side for being divisive. Psychologists call that "projecting." Since this election, people on the right have said we need to come together, when those same people spent the last 8 years driving us apart. I'm sorry if I'm not willing to just roll over and say fuck it. I'll continue to call a racist a racist. I'll "tell it like it is." Maybe 8 years from now my party will be swept into office and full control.
And that, right there, is the biggest problem of them all. By no longer being reasonable, you're no longer being constructive. The same can be said for people on both sides. You've basically said, "fuck this, I'm taking my ball and going home, we'll play again in 8 years". It's like arguing religion with people that aren't willing to change their mind... there is no compromise, and it's a waste of time.
I find this interesting... Their technical classification is "illegal immigrant." They are in the country without having gone through due process. They are there illegally. Why is it so hard for people to agree to that fact? It's like someone broke into your house... they're guilty of trespassing. Now, sure... there are a ton of people who are in this situation, so by its very scale and the length of time it's been going on, it has to be handled differently than that person who broke into your house. But it still has to be discussed and handled. Obama has kicked out 2.5+ million illegal immigrants in his presidency, and Trump is basically saying he's going to continue to do the same thing. If you don't like them being called illegal immigrants, and won't accept the fact that they are there illegally, then why have any immigration policies at all?
When you bring up points like not wanting to give illegal aliens state IDs, driver licenses, federal/state assistance, or not wanting municipalities to ignore federal immigration law with sanctuary cities, since by the mere fact that these people are foreign you think "calling it out" as racist is a long term benefit, because others on the left seem to think it is? It would seem that any type of requirement to enter the country could be deemed racist, yet what is the point of immiagration laws if you don't adhere to some sort, or any sort of standards? I know it's a simplistic argument but asking for stricter control of immigration policy to the levels of other neighboring countries (asking for Canada or Mexico level laws and adherence) will get you branded a xenophobe or racist. There is certainly negotiating room within these arguments.
I don't mind the term illegal immigrant at all, but the point we were discussing was their propensity for crimes like rape, theft, etc, which the data shows is no higher than any similar legal demographic.
If Trump isn't going to change much on immigration policy why was it such a big deal in this election? His grand strategy is to build a wall, which will not accomplish much. Does he want to actively hunt for illegal immigrants so that they can be deported? How will he do that, and what will the deportation process be? How much will it cost? How will he avoid violating American Citizen's rights while hunting for illegal immigrants? We can only argue over the tone of his message, because he does not have any clear policy on what he wants do to. Here's another questions. Does anybody on this board know of someone who can't find a job because of illegal immigrants?
The best breakdown of Trump's win that I've heard so far. In particular, this passage strikes a real cord with me:
So Ben Carson just declined a cabinet post because: This is a man who actually sought the presidency and received serious support and consideration from Republican voters. The right wing has a serious problem with being utterly disconnected from reality, and literally nothing else will get solved until that does.
I agree that just because they are illegal immigrants doesn't mean that they have a propensity for crime beyond what is a normal percentage of the legal population, but that is still an additional amount of crime that wouldn't be there if they weren't there illegally in the first place. Do any illegal immigrants pay taxes? Can they? How do they get car insurance, or drivers licenses, or anything like that?
The figure I've seen is that they pay just south of $12 billion annually in various taxes. Although if we're going to measure value in terms of what I'm getting from the people who are receiving my tax dollars, I'd sooner cut Alabama loose than the people who pick my sweet California produce.
I don't buy it. It's a narrative popular on the internet because its arguments most strongly resonate with internet culture. Over in real life the most common reasons I've heard are that people hate the establishment and want change, or that they're feeling economic insecurity and don't feel Obama's accomplishments or Hillary's promises would address that insecurity. Haven't heard a single person in real life say they voted for Trump because they hate PC culture. I will say I do believe the Left's bloviating on Trump's racism/sexism/bigotry did contribute to Hillary's loss, just not in the way that narrative claims.
I think the combination of Hillary coming across really disingenuous as well as obviously being in the pockets of major corporations and foreign countries really hurt her. She got democrats to vote in the percentages versus republicans they they normally do(about 50%), just less people showing up over all and losing the rust belt which she didn't even bother to court. Even in those states, it was close.
Totally agree with this. I don't think it was as much of people flipping from Obama to Trump, while that may have happened, but at the end of the day Hilary got approx. 5M less votes than Obama got in 2012, while Trump got 400K LESS votes than Romney did. So who did Trump gain exactly? The problem is Hilary can't turn out the Democrat voters like Obama can. They Democrats had the same problem in 2000 and 2004. But when Obama came along he was such a charismatic leader that he overcame that Democrat turnout issue, but as it turns out he was only masking a problem the Democrats have been having since 2000.
In addition, it seems like the Clinton campaign still doesn't get it. They've been blaming everything except for themselves. Comey and Wikileaks primarily. The exit polling shows that people had their minds made up mostly back in September. Maybe some people got swayed by that shit, but not enough to turn and election.
Yep... the speech transcripts were a bigger deal than people thought. And this really struck a nerve with some people: