Some feminists do believe that vaginal intercourse is inherently rape. Some do regard men as intrinsically evil. Some are really unshaven, and some really do hate men. I don’t support this. The vast majority of feminists that I read and interact with aren’t like this at all. None of them would ever suggest that you should leave your drinks unattended with a bunch of strange men. None of them think it’s a good idea to twirl around a dark alley in a short skirt and a tank top. Not a single one would suggest that you get into cars with strange men and demand that they take you to funky town. That’s not the point. They’re simply trying to change the discourse. It’s fine – admirable, even – to take precautions, and to encourage others to do the same. It’s disheartening when the first place analysis of sexual assault goes is “what did the victim do wrong”? And from there, it’s a short step to “well it was her fault.” Don’t get me wrong, there’s a step there. But women really do get blamed for rape in a lot of places, and the first signpost to that argument is always, “well, she was dumb for wearing this/going there/doing that.” And feminists are going to be leery of any coverage that starts that way. So yes, by all means, be careful, whether you’re a woman or a man. But that’s not nearly enough, and it shouldn’t be the beginning or the end of the conversation.
No real background in this, but I remember hearing that in a lot of third world countries women will be disowned by their father and/or husband if they are ever raped.
Well, that's partly true. The bigger picture is that women are also raped to expiate the shame of a crime committed by her brother. And raped before being executed because certain countries follow the laws of a certain religion which stipulate that females cannot be executed if they are virgins. This also doesn't happen in the civilized world, and doesn't explain what about the language of common sense measures to not put yourself in dangerous situations has to do with defining rape as a crime against a woman's father or husband.
It's not a logical equivalency, but the underlying principle that it's a woman's FAULT if she gets raped girds both the "well, she shouldn't have worn that" arguments and "she brought shame on her husband." How would you avoid "dangerous situations?" Avoiding rape entirely would require an exhausting level of vigilance, bordering on isolation. Victim-blaming definitely happens in the "civilized" world. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1570828/Saudi-rape-victim-attacked-by-shamed-brother.html http://www.thedailystar.net/newDesign/news-details.php?nid=101309 http://www.msmagazine.com/spring2005/congo.asp For a start. I'm sure I could find some closer to home, but there you go.
I completely understand that, but consider it an affront that the very behaviour they are exhibiting is something they are rebelling against. Once again, it's a double standard and ironic. I don't want to denigrate this topic. I consider myself firmly within the 90% of men who abhor the act. However, I want to highlight that there is a flipside to that. Whenever I sleep with someone new, the concern is always at the back of my mind that after the act they may claim rape. It may only be say so, and a charge may never stick. But, the accusation will always be there, and there's a massive stigma attached to it. I realise I'm slightly paranoid, but it's too late once it's done. So, I'm always slightly suspicious in any circumstance that could lead to sex. And, that suspicion negatively impacts on the chances of it happening. A very minor thing in the scheme of things but, still, a valid concern.
I like how you accuse him of making up a statistic based on no evidence whatsoever and then ... umm... claim that more than 9% of the population are rapists based personal incredulity.
This is worth discussing. You shouldn't ever have to be concerned about this. Are you having consensual sex? If yes, this isn't a concern. False rape accusations are far less prevalent than the media makes them out to be. Truly. If you're not having consensual sex, be worried. Very worried. And the best method of dealing with that worry is seppuku- I heard it works wonders. In all seriousness, though- there is a great concept called enthusiastic consent. My man Hugo explains it better than I ever could here. EDIT: I merely pointed out that his estimation of rapists in a given population was statistically impossible. He doesn't need to parse crime stats, but basic math skills will tell you that ~9% of a population cannot be responsible for all rapes in a given population. Incredulous at his underestimation? Well, yeah. I thought everyone on here was a math whiz like myself.
How is that statistically impossible? It is only impossible if each and every raped woman is raped by a different man.
Another unexamined issue: A lot of rapists don't even understand what they've done. The think, "she stopped saying no!", or "we were both really wasted!", or "well she didn't fight me off", and merrily slot themselves into the "not rapist category", because they weren't waiting in the bushes looking to tackle a woman in a short skirt. By focusing the discussion on violent stranger rape, you help them feel better about it: "how could I be a rapist? I don't even own a ski-mask!" It means that we need to work with both men AND women about how consent is communicated. No man wants to be falsely accused of rape. No woman wants to be raped. Feminism is interested in making sure those two things don't happen, and if you are too, we're on the same team. Now lets draw up a play.
Wait, so do some women who don't want to have sex just lie there and take it without saying no or putting up some sort of resistance?
Yes. More than you might expect. They might do it because they're afraid of violence, or because they're too drunk, or because they're never taught how to say no, but it happens all the time. And it can be stopped. Because how shitty would you feel as a woman knowing you were violated but did nothing to stop it? And how shitty would you feel as a guy knowing you violated somebody without knowing it? Nobody wants that.
Another reason Feminists get sick of the whole discussion about what to do to avoid becoming a rape victim is that it inevitably gets framed around the issue of stranger rape, which makes up a small portion of the actual rapes that occur. Two of my friends have confided in me that they had been raped, and in both cases they were raped by their significant other. Even more appalling, my friend who had been raped by her fiance was told by the police that it wasn't rape because the perpetrator happened to be engaged with her (Probably not in those terms, I'm guessing). Reading Feminist writings, having discussions with women, and it becomes clear that most rape victims were raped by someone they both knew and trusted. How are you really supposed to "take precautions" against this reality?
I have known several females over the years who just don't say no, whether they actively wanted to have sex or not. They don't want to hurt his feelings, etc. This makes this situation rather confusing to both genders, women feel shitty or used about it and the guy doesn't know what he has done wrong, because of mixed messages. Women need to speak up and men need to listen.
Ah, you also read the Lisak & Miller study. It's not anything that most people couldn't figure out on their own, but it's nice to see the numbers breakdown. Rapists Don't Self-Identify As Rapists. EDIT: You're trolling now, and so I'm not going to engage with you any further on this subject. Things to consider, however, when doing basic math on sex crimes- percentages of rapists imprisoned at any given time (relatively high), percentages of unreported rapes (massively large number here), and percentages of single-time rape victims (~40% of reported rapes, by the way) versus repeat victims, and child victims (whoa large number). Your initial math was close to being correct (10% would've made your statement true) but you aren't accounting for a margin of error due to the uncontrolled variables. And there are assuredly a large, very large amount of variables not being accounted for.
"Rape is about power, not sex" and the need to shift the focus away from stranger rape seem directly at odds with each other. At least in the context we're talking about - the blurriness of consent, not something like an abusive husband situation - how much would you say that rape is about power?
I think that sometimes rape is about sex. More accurately, though, it's often about power expressed sexually. It's the idea that "I can do whatever I want to this person's body, regardless of whether they're into it." And from a woman's perspective, it's "my body is for public consumption, I don't even have power over that much." So while I don't think that all rapists hate women and just want to see them hurt, the idea that you're entitled to the bodily autonomy of another person is a common thread among rapists, regardless of how well they know the person. Not having to stop and consider whether the person is into it is a form of power.
I was saying that in some situations, it's simply about sex, but those are relatively rare: maybe a normally conscientious person under the influence of ecstasy? In general, however, there are power dynamics in play, and while the methodology is sex, the underlying assumption is one of power imbalance. I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was simply replying to RCGT in saying that "most rapes are acquaintance rapes" and "rape is about power" aren't mutually exclusive ideas.
Yeah, that's it. Accuse me of trolling and exclude me from any further discussion. What nonsense this is. How is it that the percentage of rapists imprisoned at one time is relatively high, yet there is a large amount of unreported rapes? Those two figures are at loggerheads. The percentage of single-time rape victims is irrelevant. By the way, with reference to your statements about false rapes, this article - <a class="postlink" href="http://www.slate.com/id/2231012" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.slate.com/id/2231012</a> - written by two feminist bloggers and which sorts out a few different studies about false rapes, settles on a figure of 8 to 10%. I don't understand why, but whenever the subject of false rapes it brought up, it's treated as a zero sum game, as if somehow acknowledging that false rape accusations are a serious problem for the people on the receiving end, or as though recognizing that false rape accusations are a serious burden on a rape victim being taken seriously (by the police, by the courts, by society), are at odds with the broader cause of bringing the subject of rape out from under the rug.