Feminism

Right, I agree with you. Not sure if that was clear.

 

Well, this got boring.

 

If you're going to link a video in a feminism thread, it'd better be funny.

If you're not a part of the solution, you're a part of the problem.

 

See, this is the point I had been planning on making before I got carried away with my last post. In these two threads, there have been people that claimed that feminism doesn't have a purpose anymore, that feminism doesn't have a right to exist, that feminism is just for a bunch of whiny bitches who suddenly decided to become offended by everything, that feminists are insane, that feminists make up all of the stuff they're protesting, and all sorts of other idiotic claims by people who say they aren't feminists but apparently have much more knowledge about what feminism actually entails than the people who consider themselves feminists or, at the least, are defending it because they've actually taken the time to study it and have some understanding of it.

Well, there have been, what? Three pages so far of a discussion about rape and sexual assault/harassment because most people don't really have a full understanding of the topic? This is why there is still feminism and why it's a necessary movement and it's for basic issues like these that I think most people consider themselves feminists. Pink Cup and Om Nom Nom have made great points so far about people's doubts/qualms about rape education, but I just wanted to reiterate the point that what we have in place right now is extremely flawed. Like others have said, there is such a high emphasis on how women can avoid rape because if it does get reported friends/doctors/police/reporters tend to immediately jump to how the woman could have not placed herself in that situation, rather than emphasizing the blame on the man. And it's not just about going into dark alleys and accepting rides from strangers. "Don't dress like a slut," and "Don't drink/get drunk" are always near the top of the list because then people will think you deserve it. People always want to know what a girl was wearing and what she looked like when a rape case blows up in the news. (Was there a single report on Lara Logan's sexual assault in Egypt that didn't mention that she's beautiful?) It's appalling that the education men get is basically putting them in this mindset that everyone thinks they're inherently criminal. The system is generally shaming women and scaring men and that's how people think rape is going to be stopped. I think there needs to be a lot more emphasis on teaching women how to say no. You'd think that would be so easy, but girls have been so socialized into being polite and giving and afraid that when you're in a threatening situation it is shockingly difficult. It's upsetting how much girls' thought process can resemble the rapist's with reasoning like "Well, I did make out with him at that party and leave with him so..." or "Well, he did buy me dinner, so..." or "I did agree to come up and I know what he's expecting so..." or "He's a nice guy so...." "-even though I don't want to, it seems like I should just have sex with him." People asked me (and I've asked myself a million times) "Why didn't you just leave?" I didn't start to actually say no until it was obvious that it was about to transition to sex. Because that shit is fucking terrifying and difficult.

And I think that men need to be taught to recognize when a woman is a willing participant. It sounds ridiculous but that's one of the biggest problems. Sometimes the woman is too scared to ever say no, does that mean she wasn't raped? There's the really thin line between a consensual drunken hookup and when guys take advantage of a girl that is too out of her mind to recognize what's happening and be able to consent or say no. There are plenty of guys who think that they have the right to sex no matter what because of those aforementioned situations (She came home with me, I bought her dinner, I've treated her well, She's dressed sexy), or they don't think that women can change their minds.

People aren't even clear about what rape is. I am about 98% sure that if someone asked that guy, "Hey man, just curious, have you raped anyone?" that he would say no. (Shortest version of the story possible: He called me and asked "What, are you mad at me, or something?") And I wouldn't doubt that there were at least a few people who were reading my original post and up until I described the signs of violence, might have felt uneasy classifying it as rape. Hey, like I said, my best friends and even I couldn't immediately bring ourselves to call it that. I remember when the episode of Mad Men first aired with the scene of Joan getting raped by her husband, there was this alarming aftermath where a lot of viewers of both sexes didn't realize that they were watching a rape scene. Sorry to pick on that one member, but there was the guy who didn't even know that women could passively be raped. There are still so many questions that aren't common enough knowledge about rape.

And then there are the less extreme issues of assault and harassment. I said in the original post that I didn't think a lot of guys realized how big of an issue it was, and sure enough a few posts later a guy said he hadn't seen harassment so he didn't know it was so rampant. It's weird how invisible it is. I haven't seen harassment to other women either. But obviously it happens. And unfortunately there are a whole bunch of things to muck everything up like false rape charges (disgusting) or that saying of "The difference between harassment and flirting is how attracted the girl is to the guy" or ideas that all sex while intoxicated or even all sex is a form of rape (for the record, I strongly disagree with both of these sentiments). It's this immensely complicated group of issues that for whatever reason people pretend isn't that big of a deal or it gets warped so much, and I think everyone can agree that that's a problem, no?

So, yes, it's reasons like these that feminism needs to be defended and acknowledged and accepted. For me, women's safety and women's health are my two biggest causes under the feminism umbrella. I think that these are basic, basic, basic rights and they're still not being honored. (Oh hey stupid fucking bills that could restrict access to cancer screenings et al, but I'm not even going to get started on that.) I don't see how either of these can be argued against. And yet people constantly delegitimize (I made that word up, I know) feminism and it drives me absolutely crazy. GAH. End of rant.

 

This, I think, is a big part of the problem in have a meaningful conversation about rape. A whole lot of very different crimes are all rolled into one label, which makes discussing the topic very difficult.

With other crimes, it's easy to see how useful it is to give things different names; theft, robbery, and burglary; murder and manslaughter.

There's Dark Alley Rape, Date Rape, Marital Rape, all of which are often forcible rape, but then there's also non-forcible sex that is rape due to lack of consent, typically because the victim was legally incapable of giving consent (due to self-administered intoxication; if someone drugs you, that's force).

 

Also, video taping somebody having sex without their consent is terribly, terribly fucked up. Neither here nor there, but I see it used for humor sometimes (HIMYM, IHTSBIH, etc.), and it really messes with me.

 

Also happened on Always Sunny in Philadelphia.

While we're at it, the use of men being raped as humor is pretty fucked up. (Wedding Crashers)

 

If education about not going down dark alleys / accepting rides from strangers / whatever results in women getting blamed for not being more careful, then doesn't it stand to reason that educating women on saying no will result in the same sort of blame later on down the road? For that matter, that's the sort of bullshit we hear from morons talking about restricting abortion to "forcible rape".

 

While I agree that taking advantage a girl while she's borderline comatose from drinking (especially if the guy is the one that put her there) is awful, most of the other situations are bullshit to call rape and it marginalizes the plight of the real victims.

Seriously? You use the same word for "He took me out to dinner, so I'll 'hold up my end of the bargain' even if I'm not sure about him" and a violent attack and forceful sexual acts?

I'm still having a hard time believing (though at this point not doubting) that women will have sex with a guy they don't like just to shut him up like some used car salesman or to not hurt his feelings, but calling that rape is ridiculous. I'm not saying there isn't any pressure there, but this is a two way street and at the end of the day you're an adult, and you should be able to choose and be held accountable for what you do or do not do (barring force obviously).

 

It's one thing to use it as a joke, I'm generally of the opinion that nothing is off limits when it comes to humor, but the movie that was really fucked up was 40 days and 40 nights, where the guy is raped at the end of the movie and then forced to apologize to his girlfriend for "cheating" on her and it's played completely straight.

 

Force has a very liberal meaning legally. If I slip you a roofie, that's force. Threat of force is typically treated the same way as actual force. Virtually the only thing that would be ruled out is if you said "Yes" but were too drunk to legally give consent.

People tend to assume "forcible rape" is synonymous with "scary, stranger, dark alley rape," and would exclude date rape or drugging.

 

I'm sure you're familiar with the bill that was introduced restricting public funds for abortion to only include "forcible rape". Something tells me the member who introduced it is not entirely familiar with the legal definition of "forcible" and wasn't using it in that specific manner.

 

I agree that nothing should be off limits. I guess the fucked up part is that if you joke about raping a woman, everyone knows that you've entered into dangerous territory, that's probably exactly what you're going for with the joke, the shock value and all that. Jokes about men getting raped don't have that same feeling.

Edit: I don't mean it's fucked up that joking about raping women is in the taboo territory. I mean it's fucked up that joking about raping men isn't. I realize I phrased that poorly.

 

TvTropes actually lists quite a few instances where this comes up in the media.

Kind of a tangent, but this one is well worth reading through as well. Especially the Real Life section.

 

Yup. Especially prison rape, which is seen as a huge joke.

Except in American History X. Jesus christ, I had to watch the end of that movie standing up.

Reforming rape culture is one of the central platforms of feminism, and it's one of the ones everyday men can contribute to most directly.

 

No, it is- to decent, feeling people. Every time I hear a prison-rape joke, or a don't-drop-the-soap joke...it pisses me the fuck off. It is absolutely NOT acceptable that rape has become a sort of "added bonus" that gets thrown in on top of whatever prison sentence you've been given. It's become almost expected. I think a lot of feminists get riled up about this issue because we know what it's like to be constantly vigilant and on the lookout for potential rapists. Living that way absolutely blows, and I can't imagine how much more difficult it must be for the incarcerated to always be hyper-aware of the all-too-real possibility of rape. It's not cool, and it's not funny.

Rape just isn't funny. I know, I know- I've fully crossed the line from average feminist to sour-faced killjoy feminist. But I don't give a fuck- violating someone in that manner makes me sick, and I can't laugh. The Accused made me throw up. American History X made me cry. I can't see any humor in the situation.

EDIT: Nom, do I know you in real life or something?! Holy crap.

 

There is a distinction though between something not ever being funny, and something being off limits.

 

Ok, I want to phrase this as precisely and delicately as possible, but forgive me if I fall short of that. I feel like the term Rape Culture is a rhetorical device more than it is an actual thing. Don't get me wrong, I think rape is a huge problem in this country and elsewhere, and that we as a society don't devote the resources to addressing it that we should, largely as a function of our unwillingness to accept how serious a problem it really is, but I feel like the notion of a culture that actively accepts and promotes rape really isn't accurate or fair. It strikes me as the rhetorical equivalent of a racketeering charge, in that if you can prove a given thing is part of the larger conspiracy, you can then charge it with everything the conspiracy is guilty of. In this way do many feminists draw a line with very few bends in it from jokes and beer ads to actual criminal assaults.

Perhaps it's because feminism is a very liberal movement, and thus its philosophical underpinnings are very liberal, and along with that comes increased notions of group identity, environmental influence as opposed to personal responsibility and other notions that view a person as more a product or piece of their context rather than an individual agent, but it's not the view I hold in general, and thus I guess it's not exactly a surprise that I would likewise not hold that view applied to a specific domain (in this case sexual assault).

I do think that environment and context comes into play, but at a much more local and direct level. To make an analogy I would say it's the difference between playing Grand Theft Auto 4 and facing real pressure to join a violent gang. One is a real force shaping one's thinking and actions, the other is not so much. I would draw a similar line between much of the purported "trappings" of rape culture, and ongoing personal contact with men who engage in violence toward women (which we are agreed there is far too much of).

tl;dr: I think the problem of rape is a systemic problem, not a systematic problem.

 

I actually agree with you about the term itself. I've always thought it was hazy and nebulous and shrouded more than it defined, but it's the term used, and I don't get to be in charge of the terms used. It is kind of pat shorthand for very complicated problems, and I agree that it deserves deconstruction and analysis. At that point though, you're starting to get into semantics (which I find interesting, but can sort of derail the conversation). It's an issue worth discussing, though.

I don't think rape jokes are off-limits, or make you a bad person.

I do think jokes where the punchline is "rape isn't that bad", or "rape is hilarious" are insensitive and generally in poor taste. So yeah, I think that mocking Ben Roethlisberger for being a terrible person is good; even under the guise of humor, we shouldn't give people a pass on humanity because they can throw a football real good.

Jokes that elucidate the issue of rape/shine light on it/excoriate rapists/are funny: good.

Jokes that minimize rape/cover it up/shame victims/are not funny: bad.