Friday Sober Thread: The George Zimmerman Trial

Jury asks for clarification on manslaughter charge.

That loud vacuum-like sound was the anus of Zimmerman clinching up, because that can only mean they are seriously weighing a manslaughter decision (which is pretty much the only outcome I'd agree with, given the facts of the case).

It probably also means he won't be charged with murder, though. If they came back with a murder conviction, that "ask about manslaughter" thing would be the greatest act of trolling in history.

 

1- Reaching, but maybe. Probably not.

2- That whole intent thing makes this only plausible in Jezebel Internet world. Not a chance. Murder. First degree at that.

3- Stalk or follow? It ain't illegal to follow. Stalking is a whole 'nother word.

 

If your following becomes harassing, then yes, actually it is illegal. And frankly, you're (intentionally?) missing the larger and substantive point, which is that under this interpretation of the law, you can willfully instigate a fight either physically or indirectly but still fall under the statute. This in and of itself makes it a terrible legal interpretation and/or stature.

For example, were I to punch someone in the face and he then picks up a crowbar in response, I would subsequently be justified in shooting him under this deficient definition of what is and is not self-defense.

Also, this idea that his head was "slammed into the pavement" is entirely uncorroborated beyond the words of the defendant. No witness has used that phrasing.

 

I think the law needs to be clarified about what happens depending on who instigates physical aggression, and there is a difference between a fight were people throw some punches and wrestle on the ground for a bit and slamming their head against the pavement, at that point you are trying to kill someone. If Trayvon was so afraid he should have called the cops. There really aren't enough facts out there to prove who started the fight, so I think Zimmerman should walk, you can't send someone to jail based on feelings.

 

1. Not reaching whatsoever. This is precisely what I can do under your loose interpretation of self defense using deadly force.

2. What whole intent thing? The part where I specified that I had no prior intent of fatally shooting my consensual sex partner? Or the part where I said his arrival and subsequent actions frightened me and I mentally revoked consent and shot him? And unless there were witnesses to either the interaction or our pre-rape dialogue, the police might never know anything about it. You know, like when two people begin a sequence of events in a Florida subdivision and there are no witnesses around to corroborate or refute the testimony of the surviving party.

Also, "Jezebel Internet world?" Whatever, dude.

3. It's not illegal to follow. Obviously. But to follow in a menacing manner, which is one of the definitions of stalking, is also subject to police intervention if the subject of the stalking feels said stalking is a form of unwanted attention. Trayvon had more cause to call the police due to Zimmerman's stalking than Zimmerman did because there was black kid in his neighborhood. I fervently wish Trayvon had done so.

EDIT: "There isn't enough evidence to prove who started the fight?" Jesus. I don't need to know who started the fight. One party was armed and intentionally pursued someone against the orders of the dispatcher, knowing that his pursuit could lead to conflict...even deadly conflict. This party then found himself in an altercation in which he felt obligated to use deadly force to save his life. He just proved he's not capable of making responsible decisions with his gun. One such decision ended a child's life. He needs some measure of jail time.

 

Huh? You've seen this photo of Big Z's Head, right?

Based on testimony in court, how do you propose he suffered those injuries?

 

I'm not sure which would be "worse" for Zimmerman:

"Free" life outside of prison, or probably protected custody life inside prison.

If he is found not guilty, he has to live every day knowing that he is one of the most notorious people on the planet to a large amount of people. And that he doesn't know they are or what they look like, and that they know exactly what he looks like and will be out for justice.

If he goes to jail, he loses basically all of his freedom, but if he goes into protectively custody (which I think he likely will) he's guaranteed a certain level of safety. But at the same time, a life in jail is no life at all. But is it better than a "free" life on the run being one of the most wanted men in America by a large subset of the population?

 

Those seem consistent with any fight where the people are rolling around and punching one another on concrete and one of them has a shaved head.

 

I disagree. Have you rolled around on the concrete in a fight? Have you ever fallen and struck your head on a hard surface? You have to hit your head pretty hard to break the scalp, at least I know I did. It's harder to break the scalp than it is the skin on the face....at least in my experience.

EDIT: Now that I think of it a little more, I know a guy who passed away about 4 years ago. He was out at a bar having a drink and sitting on the outside patio on plastic chairs. He came back from the bathroom and sat down, the plastic chair leg shattered, he hit his head. The skin of his scalp never broke but he had a subdural hematoma. Dead. He hit the ground, his eyes were open and he was snoring. Never woke up.

 

I'm trying not to to pick sides in this thread, but being a guy with a shaved head, I'll back that one up. It makes it easier to get scrapes and small cuts, but you have to hit your head pretty fucking hard to draw blood like that. And when you do it hurts like a motherfucker.

 

Sure, but that doesn't in and of itself prove that his head was "slammed." It could be that he was punched while his head was on the ground, or that he landed on the back of his head when they fell to the ground. I've cut my head pretty bad in the second fashion, but as it is not shaven, I can't really visually compare the two. Both would constitute hitting your head pretty hard. "Uncorroborated" was perhaps a strong choice of phrasing, but the point is that there are any number of ways one could get cuts on the back of your head.

 

I can't believe I overlooked this earlier! If you are breaking the law, you are afforded zero protection from CCW/stand your ground legislation. Foot stomping is assault. Assault is illegal. No protection. Murder charge. The rape fantasy goes back to intent. As long as the dominant party doesn't intend to commit murder or serious, unwanted bodily harm, he's in the clear.

Again, it isn't illegal to follow. Even if you're armed. If what Zimmerman is saying is true, he should absolutely walk.

Take this as an example. A young man has a baseball bat and he says he's going to kill you, but he's clear over on the other side of a parking lot.

-He has the ability. He's a young man with a bat.

-He has the intent. He said he was going to do it.

-He is not a threat. He can't kill you from the other side of a parking lot.


Now, put the man five feet away, but make him a frail 90 year old and you're a healthy adult male.

-He has intent. He said so.

-His close proximity makes him a threat.

-He lacks ability. He's a frail old man.

Now, make him an able bodied man, five feet away.

- He has intent.

- He's a threat.

-He has ability.

Justifiable defense of life.

 

I don't understand why they jury is deliberating so long. This case is so much more cut and dry than other high profile cases like Casey Anthony, Jodi Arias, OJ simpson et al, and yet they're taking just as long if not longer.

Only answer: women be crazy.

 

What exactly is defined as a "menacing manner"? It sounds right on par with something that has a loose interpretation as defined by someone else arbitrarily. A state of mind of one person attesting to the mental state and intent of someone else.

As a neighborhood watch guy, what exactly can he accomplish if he's not allowed to approach someone? Granted, he doesn't have the same rights as a police officer does in that situation. But the point of neighborhood watch is to intimidate someone out of possible criminal behavior. He called the cops. But if the cops were dispatched out, it would have taken them too long to respond and the damage would have been done.

There was a phrase I heard once..."When seconds count, the cops are minutes away."

I don't think he was wrong in approaching Martin. And if he made Zim feel like his life was threatened, he had the right to defend himself. But I don't personally feel like we shouldn't be allowed to prevent crime. Doing so is a matter of personal preference. But personal safety is important.

 

He said he was punching him "MMA style" (I don't even know what that means) and specifically denied that he saw either party slam the other one's head to the ground.

He referred to it as "ground and pound, which he then defined as, “The person on top being able to punch the person on the bottom, but the person on the bottom also has a chance to get out and punch the person on the top.”

 

Two separate cuts. Hard to do falling to the ground from a standing position....not impossible, but hard to do. All of that being said; let's circle back to the burden of proof. The State cannot prove that Big Z wasn't in a situation where he should fear bodily injury or death.

 

This is not objective.

But this whole thing is pretty terrifying to me, as somebody who people are often suspicious of for less than good reason.

That is all.

 

Sure, which I believe to be an inherent problem with the entirety of self-defense arguments and to a greater extent these sorts of statutes. It is a frequently unevaluateable claim, given the minimal requirements for invoking it. It's a fundamental and largely intractable problem in homicide law. Without witnesses, there are a million imaginable circumstances where cold blooded killing would be indistinguishable on a "beyond a reasonable doubt" level from self defense. I'm by no means suggesting a superior set of laws; that's for better minds with more time to think than I have.

Dick all and that's the point. That is why they are not police. Also, you make "approach" sound like they just casually sauntered up to one another while walking down the sidewalk. Following someone in your car and then pursuing on foot once they run is a pretty strong form of "approach."

 

4 minutes. Big Z was on the phone for 4 minutes. This isn't a big complex that this took place in. Lil T had to travel something like 350 feet, give or take, if you are being chased how does it take you more than 4 minutes to travel 350 feet?