Friday Sober Thread: Tragedy in Connecticut

Found this: http://intellectualrevolutionary.wordpress.com/tag/adam-lanza/

I honestly don't know what I think about it..anybody else have thoughts?

 

There are no AR-15's available at Cabela's as a matter of fact, the line to check out guns tonight extended through the store longer than I have ever seen, there are no AR-15's available at 4 gun stores I went to today in Phoenix and the ammo supplies were dwindling.

The guy at Cabelas told me it was the most guns they have sold that quickly ever.

 

There is little more American than imagining elaborate conspiracy to avoid uncomfortable facts.

Neither FICO nor GE were scheduled to testify.

 

Completely agree. Teachers can be role models, even icons to youths in their lives. You can't be a role model and also be strapped. Plus the danger factor, and plus every student being given a completely mixed messege. We're supposed to try and install an aversion towards violence in young people, I think we can all agree with that. It's just a plain ol' bad idea. Like Cherry Coke.

This is a disgusting, emotionally shattering tragedy that several key things play a factor, not just one. The only thing that it guarantees is that evil, scum-sucking profiteers will somehow make money off it:

"The next time you're trapped in an office tower ploughed into by a 50-ton passenger plane, you'll be wishing you bought one of our skyscraper parachutes!"

"Baggy clothes can hold dozens of guns. Buy our shitty uniforms to slightly lessen (but not eliminate whatsoever) that threat while still managing to crush your child's first bid at individuality and expressionism!"

...face it, they're just mini-Halliburtons, only without their dick in the government's mouth. THERE is your enemy, the REAL problem and the reason why I refuse to watch any news about this: Fearmongering. Without it, smart people could sit down and have rational discussions. Instead we get Nancy Grace, who isn't worthy of me butting my cigarette out in her twat.

 

No, no and no.

We spend immense amounts of energy, money and resources trying to protect children from violence. Bringing children and guns closer together does the opposite, as any survey dealing with accidental gun death will highlight.

As much sheer fucking bullshit and disrespect as teachers are given, now you want to ARM them? As if it's somehow in the teacher's realm of responsibility to shoot any intruders in case Red Dawn took place in Geometry? You would also have students coming to class armed in case the teacher flips their shit.

This is one thing about gun culture in America that needs to be understood: it's an all-or-nothing premise. Either everyone can have guns or no one can. If I know someone is armed, especially in unusual circumstances, I also want to be armed. We had to manufacture hero worship just to except police and soldiers from that mentality; that they can carry guns where we can't and it's ok, which are still unpopular ideas. We do not like to exist where there is a monopoly of force, whether it's real or imagined.

 

This may sound bad, but if I saw a kid in an ICP shirt getting his ass kicked, I would probably be tempted to join in.

And you're going to say I can't wear my rave clothes to school? See if I ever give YOU a glowstick lightshow, Mr. Anti-Plur!!!

 

Are you fucking serious? Am I missing something here? Because I haven't seen anything that says these shooters have been bullied extensively. I'm pretty sure that's a myth that started after Columbine.

And even if that is the case, quit being such a fucking dick. Being a dweeb or wearing Jinco Jeans or Insane Clown posse shirts doesn't mean someone deserves to be bullied. And I know that it's not your favorite Amendment, but forcing someone to wear a certain type of clothing violates the one that precedes your precious 2nd.

If you're purposely trolling, stop.

 

My ass. I reloaded with my high school chemistry teacher. In class.

 

OK. We get it.

It's the children that make it your breaking point.

Really though, what are your thoughts on freedom?

 

I remember Columbine VERY well, and the tidal wave of fear that followed in the year after was nothing sort of mesmerizing. Kids were being expelled and suspended left and right over things like playing Cops n Robbers to dressing in punk rock clothing. Because it was ENTIRELY the kids that were evil, right?

At least they seem to look at different aspects nowadays. 13 years ago, all of a sudden our precious little darlings were rampaging demons.

 

I just sent this in a PM, but I'll say it here. The thing that bothers me about this thread in general is that there seems to be a general feeling of "fuck it, its our gun culture, we can't do anything about it." Let me give an example:

There is a HUGE problem with this paragraph. Namely, he says "Our freedoms are why things like this happen." Then he says "we should examine those freedoms." He then follows it with this gem:

So, to summarize, "Our freedoms are why things like this happen," then "we need to examine those freedoms," then "there is nothing we can do to change those freedoms," which basically summarizes in two words. "Fuck it."

That is the undercurrent that bothers me. There is a kind of "fuck it" undercurrent throughout this thread. A thought of "this is so unbelievably tragic. Too bad we can't do anything about it." I realize no one has come out and said that those deaths, or any of the deaths from mass shootings are 'acceptable losses' for our right to carry guns, but it has certainly been implied, and that is what boggles my mind the most. The fact that, just a few days removed from this, people can return to their mindset of "ah well, that's just how it is, and we can't really change it." When I sarcastically mentioned that I am at a point where I can't imagine a tragedy large enough to actually change that mindset, I got berated, but it is true. 20 children died, all under the age of 10, all of them shot multiple times. I cannot imagine a worse tragedy, and even THAT has a lot of people right back at the 'fuck it' mentality.

We've all agreed that mental illness is a common thread throughout these recent killings, and the ONLY gun law I've proposed was one that involved keeping guns out of the homes of people with mental illnesses (a post that was largely overlooked in a sea of "D26 doesn't know about guns and therefore his opinion is invalid!). I do know about people with mental illnesses. I worked with them. I don't want them to have access to guns. I had clients that, had they had access to guns, would have killed someone. I have zero doubt about that. Obviously a law like that would have to have caveats (mental illnesses would have to be ones that could be classified as dangerous, such as schizophrenia or bipolar, and not just "ADHD"), but regardless, it would be a start.

The problem? It means that the parents of children with those illnesses can't have those guns. That infringes on the 2nd amendment, and therefore it is not realistic.

The mindset of "it is worth the risk of things like this happening for our freedom to buy guns," that I genuinely can't wrap my mind around.

 

I don't mean to diminish this tragedy in an impersonal way, but;

Why not just forget about all this knee jerk bullshit and realize that these events are, statistically, on the decline?

Why does, when it does happen, it have to become a pulpit for people who want to beat their civil liberty drums?

I don't think that there is a "FUCK IT" undercurrent running here. No one here, D26, thinks or says that about what happened here.

 

Almost...a little more...

Spoiler

 

Again, no one has outright said it. However, reading a lot of these posts, it is implied. The second someone says anything about examining gun laws, it turns into a 'gun culture' argument, and how it is impossible, and how no gun laws could've prevented what happened. Basically "fuck it, nothing could've prevented this."

I'd even go as far as to say that everyone does agree with you that the 'fuck it' mentality doesn't exist, because the very idea of thinking "fuck it" in regards to this makes us feel like complete shit. I truly think everyone in this thread wants to prevent it from happening again. I also believe that they don't want to sacrifice their own freedoms to reduce the chances of it happening again. So what is the end result? "Fuck it."

Yes, everyone acknowledges that it is a tragedy and a shame, but every single thing that is brought up in terms of how to prevent future tragedies like this is met with resistance and talk of it being impossible to change it. If the argument is continually made that no solution to this exists, then isn't the very core of that argument "fuck it, we can't do anything to stop it?"

 

OK. We get it. You're the gun guy.

We only have three choices here, and you have clearly chosen yours.
<a class="postlink" href="http://nation.foxnews.com/ct-school-shooting/2012/12/14/krauthammer-analyzes-newton-school-shooting?intcmp=fly" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://nation.foxnews.com/ct-school-sho ... intcmp=fly</a>

 

I've said that there need to be mental health overhauls, and a combination of mental health and gun laws is required. If you honestly think you can only change one of the "three causes" and it will just magically make everything better, you're nuts. I was going on the assumption that the single thing everyone agreed on was that the mental health system needs to be closely examined and maybe overhauled, as well.

I guess I shouldn't be shocked you'd quote Fox News, either.

 

How about having one or two cops in public schools? I mean, the big city schools already have cops in some cases, and in smaller towns, cops don't exactly have much to do except issue speeding tickets. Maybe this is retarded, I dunno. But when it takes 20 minutes for police to get there, you figure state laws saying you have to have a couple of cops around might be a good thing.

 

Let's slow down a bit. Is this a problem? Yes, but a small, terrible one. There have been 5 shootings like this since 2007. Given the outpouring of support from everyone, even the president, the "fuck it" attitude doesn't seem prevalent to me.

Is this a problem that can be addressed by changing the law? Maybe, but if so, it's not clear. As I said to you in a pm, the laws are designed to influence people who are afraid of their consequences. Suicide bombers are not afraid of the law, and neither are suicidal gunmen.

Is this a problem that can be addressed by gun control? Maybe, but that does require a massive change in a very conservative and entrenched element of our culture. Any reasonable person can tell you that those efforts are costly, ineffective and unpopular. Also, as I've mentioned, the benefits are conferred only if everyone participates, which given the colorful and diverse nature of the US is unlikely to happen. Finally, you are punishing the law-abiding citizens unfairly for the transgressions of the few who ignore the law.

Is this a problem that can be addressed by mental health? Maybe, but probably not to the extent of "curing" this kind of thing. Also, imagine the furor if everyone who has been diagnosed with depression or went to rehab is suddenly not able to exercise their rights. Mental health help would have gotten him some attention, but what would have resulted from that is anyone's guess.

Is this a problem that can be addressed by culture? Bingo. Gun violence in the US has been decreasing steadily. Isolation and insulation have been increasing steadily, especially among young people. You think this kid stood a chance without a group of people around him to draw him out of his shell, show him some love and companionship and make him realize he's ok? That might be the hippiest thing I've ever said, but if the kid had been on a baseball team, and left to fuck around with his buddies in high school, this wouldn't have happened. We've become insular, and that's something that we can change almost instantly, by discouraging isolation among young people. We can also put a stop to this by portraying him as he really was: a scared, lonely, weak child who lashed out at a society he couldn't become a part of and not as some terribly evil villain.