This is correct and I apologize openly to the board for dragging this into a people vs cops debate. I have zero fantasies of shooting a cop or dying in a blaze of misunderstood glory. I would not be on the radar as a weapons hoarder. My last video game system came with Super Mario Brothers. All the shoot em up games seem pretty silly to me. I have spent more on my aquarium in the past two years than I have on firearms. Frankly, I want to go to work, come home, do it for the next 30 years and retire and die. I am coming purely from a position of defense. However, I strongly believe that our Second Amendment rights were derived from a position of defense and are upheld from a position of defense. From that standpoint, limiting the defensive tools that are available to the people is fundamentally offensive. I cannot abide by it, especially when we already have common sense gun laws that are so loosely enforced.
Congrats to you? You've put in a well thought out, rational argument that has completely destroyed me. Is that what you want to hear? Too bad. Someone earlier in this thread stated that he bought his weapons specifically to fight off intruders, and specifically stated that he was concerned that those intruders would be heavily armed SWAT police officers. He very much seemed to have that in mind when purchasing his weapons. It is not that far out of the question to think that there are people out there buying crazy weapons for the specific purpose of defending themselves from police officers and the government. First off, I've already stated I down own guns and know very little about them. I've never seen a need for them. Regardless, you're buying semi-automatic weapons and riffles thinking "I'm gonna kill me some tiny animals with this big ass gun!" Good for you. Regardless, that same gun that YOU bought to kill foxes and coyotes, another person can buy to kill police officers and anyone else they deem a threat, and there are people out there who buy those guns for those exact reasons. For example there is this group, and this article discusses it as well. There are a lot of people out there who are ready to take up arms against the police and feel a war is brewing. Just because YOU don't doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Are they a small group? Sure, but they're growing.
You're missing the point. An AR-15 isn't a "big ass gun". In its standard form it's a .223 caliber, which is pretty small. During the assault weapons ban, a cop killing shithead could buy a traditional semi-automatic hunting rifle with a wooden stock in the same caliber. Or any caliber, for that matter. It's essentially the same thing. These crazy anti-government militia assholes have been around since the beginning of this country, and they're just as dangerous with hunting rifles as they are with "assault" weapons. Also, It's a rifle, not a riffle.
That's fine and good, but those anti-government militias are growing right now, and it isn't JUST them. There are people out there who are buying these kinds of military weaponry for the specific purpose of killing police or, in some cases, children. My point in getting involved in this debate was simple: we need more gun control. I'm not advocating revoking the 2nd amendment (not that it could be, that is one box that can't be unopened), but we do need some common sense gun laws, and the current laws enforced much more strictly. Sorry if that offends hunters, but it is a reality.
Did it occur to you to perhaps try and educate yourself on the topic before you proposed new legislation, the details of which you are unable to explain, in a field you know nothing about?
Megan McArdle wrote a very good, well researched and balanced article on this. Well worth the read if you have a few minutes: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...le-we-can-do-to-prevent-another-massacre.html
I don't know much about guns. I know about culture, however, and that is what this discussion is about. I know that we are a culture that embraces and celebrates many forms of violence (See: the NFL, action movies, horror movies, torture porn like the Saw franchise, and even my beloved violent video games). I know that we are a culture that embraces guns like almost no other culture in the world. I know that we are a culture that is generally distrustful of any authority figure, and I know that we are a culture that breeds mass killers like the one that attacked on Friday, or the one that attacked in Aurora, Colorado, or the shooters at Columbine, or in Arizona. I know that there are a lot of people out there who carry concealed weapons and are just praying someone starts shooting around them so that they can break out their gun and become a hero. I know that as long as there are more dangerous guns, there are going to be people out there wanting those guns to kill as many other human beings as they can. I know that guns are created for one reason: to kill. You can call them a "tool" all you want, but the single purpose of a gun is to kill things. Animals, human beings, whatever, the gun doesn't give a shit, it just kills. And I sure as shit know there are people out there that should never be around guns (i.e. people with mental illnesses). My intent was never to debate the merits of glocks versus AKs, because I don't give a flying fuck what the difference is between an automatic and semiautomatic. I will never own or shoot a gun, so I don't give a fuck. I do give a fuck if my psychotic neighbor can get a gun, though, because the only reason he has that gun is to kill something, and the crazier that fucker is, the more likely it is the thing he kills is a person, and I don't want that person to be my kid because she wandered into my crazy neighbor's yard and the guy is off his meds and thinks my daughter is some fascist government spy. I don't need intimate knowledge of the difference between an AK47 and an AR-15 to know that. It is really easy for gun nuts to scream "YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT GUNS AND DON'T GET A VOTE!" but that is a silly, bullshit distraction and defense. It is a way for them to not have to discuss the real issue at hand: the gun culture and how it leads to violence.
I agree with whoever said gun reform needs to complement mental health reform. I'm all for waiting periods and getting rid of the ridiculous loopholes in regards to background checks not happening in sales between individuals and the shady shit that goes down at gun shows. I'm also a firm believer in harsher penalties for anyone who illegally modifies their guns and people who make straw purchases. The problem with common-sense gun control comes when people support banning certain types of guns because usually people who want certain types of guns banned want them banned because they look scary. That's exactly what the 1994 assault weapon ban did for a decade and it had no measurable effect on gun crime. Just look at D26 crying about assault rifles, "military weaponry" and automatic weapons in this thread. It's extremely, extremely rare for an assault rifle or an automatic weapon to be used in crime in the US because they are so expensive, hard to get and entirely impractical for the crimes most guns are used for. Anyone who uses even the tiniest amount of logic and reasoning in an argument to restrict availability of a certain group of guns would target handguns since handguns are used several times more in crimes than rifles and shotguns combined. Note that this really has nothing to do with knowledge about firearms (I'm looking at you D26), these are basic statistics regarding crime perpetrated with guns. Being ignorant of how guns work isn't an excuse to be irrationally fearful of being attacked with one specific type of gun.
That also included the following sentences: " I'd also like us to encourage people to gang rush shooters, rather than following their instincts to hide; if we drilled it into young people that the correct thing to do is for everyone to instantly run at the guy with the gun, these sorts of mass shootings would be less deadly, because even a guy with a very powerful weapon can be brought down by 8-12 unarmed bodies piling on him at once. Would it work? Would people do it? I have no idea; all I can say is that both these things would be more effective than banning rifles with pistol grips. " What I would like to propose then, is that we bring back gym class for two to three weeks. Perhaps when children are seven years old. Have the gym teacher hold a cap gun. Make it into a fun race, "First to tackle Mr. Grimsley onto the mat wins a gold star." I also would like to know Mrs. McArdle's stance on whether it would be more difficult to fight a dozen duck-sized horses or one horse-sized duck. Because, clearly, she has the capability to cogitate on ridiculous fucking ideas and make them the sole conclusion available.
Sorry I've been exposed to these debates since I was a child (dad took me out of class in 1st grade the day the Brady Bill was signed into law to go to an NRA protest downtown, still got the front page picture of us from The Enquirer hanging in my gun room). The reason you'll get shouted down for not knowing your proper gun knowledge is because all of the debates and the vast majority of the laws proposed in the wake of these tragedies are wholly reactionary, based on nothing but pure emotion, and have little to do with reality. Based on the insanely illogical, hyperbole, and exaggeration you've bandied about in the past few pages you are no closer to discussing the "real issue at hand" than anyone who writes you off at your utter lack of knowledge on the subject. I'll at least give credit to Superfantastic who at least had some lucid arguments using statistics to back him up (as misguided as I think his argument were) the last time we had this debate. Im curious as what VanillaGorilla's ideas are for strengthening the issue of private sales? I mean as far as I'd be willing to go, without some insanely amazing arguments to the contrary, would be have private sales be subject to the same NICS background check ffl dealers do. I wouldn't be thrilled with filling out 4473s for private gun sales but at least it would still be legal. Banning private sales all together would be wholly unconstitutional. I've heard some arguments that HIPPA laws are one of the main reasons the FBI isn't able to tie mental health records with their databases. While I could see this help prevent mentally ill people purchasing firearms there still huge questions about what would constitute being declared ineligible to purchase a gun. What mental health problems would be included? Who and how would these judgements be made? Should say a military veteran be denied his constitutional rights because he suffered from PTSD? The mental health field, as has been stated in this thread, is far from an exact science.
Dude, I've had an AK shoved in my face by Honduran police officers and gotten shook down by Indonesian cops looking for coke money. I've been there, done that. I'm not suggesting cops in the US are better or worse than any third world hell hole you care to name. Congratulations, you have not had problems with the police. Welcome to "You're Not Fucking Supposed To" Land. I am willing to bet you've never dealt with the police in someone's home, where shit happens a bit differently than in public or in touristy places. However I stand by my statement that people in the US, especially people that own guns don't trust the police or government. Hell, the Republican party's strategy was relying on the conservative base's belief that government was bad, so the party running on the small government, no regulation, keep your guns platform was the best choice. Poor people and minorities report feeling targeted by police unfairly and have for decades and don't trust them to enforce the law fairly. <a class="postlink" href="http://articles.cnn.com/1997-03-21/us/9703_21_govt.poll_1_new-poll-government-confidence?_s=PM:US" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://articles.cnn.com/1997-03-21/us/9 ... e?_s=PM:US</a> This was written during a roaring economy of a second-term, popular president! <a class="postlink" href="http://www.gallup.com/poll/19783/Confidence-Local-Police-Drops-10Year-Low.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.gallup.com/poll/19783/Confid ... r-Low.aspx</a> <a class="postlink" href="http://www.prisonpolicy.org/prisonindex/policeconfidence.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.prisonpolicy.org/prisonindex ... dence.html</a> You might not know much about American politics, so I'll remind you that there is a movement for several states to secede from the US (again, like it worked out so well the first time) and the Tea Party movement was immensely popular running on a "reduce the government" platform. The government is not popular, especially in the "gun" states. Or did you think the song "Fuck Da Police" was a kind and gentle sonnet?
It's interesting how many anti-gun arguments start off with this statement. Is there any other topic than an argument could presented with an opening statement like that and the person could get away with it as pro-gun control people do? And like clockwork, each and every time some tragedy occurs, the gun control people use it as a platform and scream something just as inane. "The assault weapons ban should be reinstated!" AR15s weren't included in the ban in the first place. "People shouldn't be allowed to have automatic weapons!" They aren't. The only way it's possible is with a class 3 permit, which is very difficult to get, if not impossible. "Society is different, people don't need guns. That's what cops are for." This happened 20 minutes from Sandy Hook. The reason why many gun control supporters don't have a ton of merit with their arguments is as Kubla said, they're reactionary and not well thought out. They don't care enough to learn about guns or so-called gun culture to have a valuable perspective on addressing it other than unrealistic blanket statements. Here's how I would address it: 1)) All clinically diagnosed mental problems should be included, even soldiers with PTSD at least until they're medically cleared. 2) would also require that all gun purchases require a permit, not just pistols. 3) The permit system would federalized, not regulated at the state level. It's stupid that you can carry rifles across state lines but not pistols because you don't have the same exact peace of plastic with a different state seal on it.
This is no better than the argument D26 is making; you've simply substituted "assault weapons" for "mental problems." http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_violence.php
I didn't say mental illness is correlated with violence, I said people with mental illnesses shouldnt have firearms. Not every convicted felon commits a violent crime, but they're still not allow to own a gun (in most places). And that's not a comparison of felons to the mentally ill, but there some circumstances that should be disqualifiers.
In my experience, not every time but sometimes, gun control advocates stance softens quite a bit if they are ever exposed to guns and force themselves to learn something about gun culture. It's amazing what happens sometimes when people open their eyes. In other news related to gun culture and this tragedy: <a class="postlink" href="http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2012/12/us/sandy-hook-timeline/?hpt=hp_c2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2012/12/ ... ?hpt=hp_c2</a> 20 minutes. This goes back to the central plank of gun culture.
But if you accept that people with mental illness are no more likely to commit violence than people without mental illness, then saying those with mental illness should not be allowed to own firearms is an arbitrary determination. To be perfectly honest for all the "outrage" about these kinds of shootings it seems apparent that we as Americans don't really want to take serious steps in trying to prevent them. Whenever they occur, you hear all the "solutions" proposed, and you know what they all have in common? People all propose things that don't personally impact or inconvienience themselves. D26, someone who doesn't own a gun, is calling for more gun control. You're calling for restrictions on firearm ownership to exclude groups that you are not a member of. (Be honest - would you advocate that people with mental illness be disallowed from gun ownership if you had a mental illness?) People who enjoy violent video games will defend them and point to any other culprit so their ability to play violent video games isn't threatened. The media will point in any direction that excludes their sensaltionalism of these crimes from being a factor. And so on. Call me cynical, but frankly the reality seems to be that we as Americans implicitly believe that these massacres are a fair price for the freedoms we enjoy. But because our current culture values appearances far more than truth, we will never explicity admit it.
I think all firearms transactions should require a NICS check, even private sales. It's a ten minute process, the FFL dealer can check to see if the serial is reported as stolen, and it protects the seller from putting a gun in the hands of someone who is not legally allowed to own a firearm. It also closes up the gun show loophole* that gets brought up in these conversations. There are people who are operating firearms businesses without a license- something that affects all of us. *Here is how the law is currently set up, and here is how it is supposed to work. Individual gun owners have the right to sell their personal firearms to other individuals without a mandatory background check. Their only requirement is to have reasonable belief that they're selling their gun to an okay person. Because of the way the law is written, I am within my legal rights to rent a booth at a gun show and sell off my personal collection as long as I'm not running a business. i.e.- buying, selling, and trading firearms for profit. The minute a person starts flipping guns for a profit, he becomes a gun dealer who should obtain a Federal Firearms License. These regulations are so loose that there are people who rent booth space with signage, business cards, etc. that state very plainly they buy, sell, and trade firearms. They're doing it without a license and this is one way for unqualified individuals to get guns. I would like to see that change.
Former V.P. Dan Quayle is selling his guns: Cerberus Remington and Bushmaster are included in that group.
I'll preface once more that I think the sheer number of guns in the U.S. makes any effort to regulate them almost completely pointless. This is your culture, and for some reason you brag about it, even in the face of something this awful. Would be nice if your media stopped plastering it all over though, because it's really depressing to watch for the rest of the Western world. And while it's entertaining (to a point) to watch you all rub your gun boners, fantasizing about shooting cops who any minute will bust down your door guns blazing, or taking down the guv'ment with a well armed militia (who could TOTALLY take down the U.S. Army, obviously), or calling guns tools as if that makes a difference (or is true), please include the second part of your argument, which is the topic of this thread, even though only VanillaGorilla and maybe one other person has the honesty to actually say it: You think it's worth the downside. You want your guns -- ALL of your guns, no matter how slaughter-inducing they may be -- despite the LIKELY risk that deranged, or even just pissed off people will get a hold of them, and do what they do best, which in this case is murder many children, with many bullets, in a shockingly small amount of time. Now I'm not saying you WANT these people to get guns, but you're fully aware that the more of these guns that exist, the more likely nutjobs will get a hold of them. And yet you still argue, religiously, to keep these guns in circulation. Fair enough, but at least have the honesty to admit that you're willing to risk the downside of wanton killing sprees in order to have this "freedom". And all you who use the "it's our culture" argument, two questions: why the fuck do you brag about that? And, more importantly, if it's the case that part of your culture is killing innocent people and children, why the fuck don't you want to change it?!