And when he doesn't do it? Not being a dick, but what if he doesn't? What if he back talks and doesn't do as asked? What do you do when grounding him doesn't work? When extra chores don't work? When removing privileges doesn't work? When taking away luxuries doesn't work? What...then? Accept that you suck as a parent and that you've possibly failed your child?
Most people fail to see this as a very real option. Trust me, as somebody who has had to deal with a kid like this, it's beyond frustrating. When they don't give a shit what you think or do or say....you're about out of alternatives.
When they're of a mindset that they can (and will) wear you down, and nothing you do can be THAT truly bad for them...what then indeed? Taking them out of school and home schooling them stunts them for real life as adults. Taking away their privileges handicaps the parent as much as the child. Taking away electronics you're under contract for is a ridiculous expense. Taking away sports/extracurricular activities can, particularly for older children, remove opportunities for scholarships and academic advancement. So really... For anyone who says there's always another option... GIVE IT TO ME. What is this "other option" I keep hearing about? And then when it doesn't work, what's the next one? ESPECIALLY when the situation can TRULY be solved by a controlled application of force to let the child know that s/he is NOT in charge.
Ok, what if the kid hits back? Do you then proceed to beat the shit out of him? What if he's bigger than you at this point? Get a weapon? At what point does the "what if it doesn't work" hypothetical stop? And how do parents who raise perfectly lovely kids (honestly the nicest and most empathetic kids I've met) without ever using corporal punishment do it?
And how do parents who raise perfectly lovely kids (honestly the nicest and most empathetic kids I've met) who use corporal punishment do it?
With all the things good parents do, and then a bit of luck that the corporal punishment didn't do too much damage. You're the one arguing that it's a necessary tool, and that without it parenting just can't be accomplished.
I think my whole point was that if the kid ever thought that asking the smartass question in the first place was an option, something's already gone wrong.
In that, you are incorrect. Reread my posts. I'm not advocating corporal punishment as necessary. I'm saying it's not a deal breaker for good parenting.
In defense of the kid, it's a smartass request. "Put on some uncomfortable clothes and restrictive shoes so we can drive to a crowded building where we'll all talk to ourselves about a dead hippie who wore a robe and sandals everywhere he went." How's about you fuck off up off my back and get busy livin' or get busy dyin' grandma?
Think of it like soda or some other unhealthy food. Is a little bit going to fuck up your kid for life? Very likely not. But a lot of it will fuck your kid up, and in all instances it's not doing anything good for the kid.
I can answer these from personal experience. When I got hit on the arms by an older relative as a kid, occasionally I would retaliate and hit them back on the wrists. Usually that just meant I would get hit harder on the arms and punished far more severely. No one ever "beat the shit" out of me, I was never hit in the face or even the chest, etc. By the time I was bigger than some of my relatives (12 years old), I was already significantly more mature and had a very respectful attitude towards my older relatives. I didn't need corporal punishment as much by then, but in the rare instances that it did happen, I wouldn't do anything in retaliation. I'll be honest. Of all the kids who I knew who were "perfectly lovely" growing up, all of them received corporal punishment. I'm sure kids that never received corporal punishment and are perfectly lovely exist, I just think that makes the task of parenting a whole hell of a lot harder. And I'm not sure it would have worked on someone like myself.
Therein lies our fundamental disagreement. You view corporal punishment of any kind ever applied at all under any circumstances whatsoever as poisonous and detrimental to a child's welfare and mental wellbeing. I do not. So, I'll keep doing what I've been doing. So far, so very good.
And I think you're wrong. Every idiot knows not to hit a dog, but somehow we convince ourselves that hitting a child somehow achieves the total opposite results that hitting a dog does. If your children turned out well, they turned out well in spite of corporal punishment, not because of it.
Another ''teacher perspective'' post: I don't know why the whole ''kids these days'' thing is still going on, but it's just wrong. Look, most kids and teenagers are good people who simply want to figure out life and enjoy themselves. Yes, sometimes they'll want to test some limits, but very few of them are disrespectful to teachers. It's just that when it happens, you remember it more than the 97 other times when everything went well. I also tend to agree with Aetius, because so far, 100% of the times I saw kids with big problems with authority figures, it was the fault of the parents. No exceptions. And let's not forget that some teachers suck as teachers and as human beings. Kids pick up on insecurities and bullshit much faster than most adults because they just follow their instincts. If you don't pretend and are honest with them, most of the problems vanish pretty fast (wow, who would have guessed?). I'm not saying teaching isn't really hard sometimes and everything is just sunshine and unicorns, but come on, the whole ''smack them till they love you'' thing is retarded, and so is the ''all kids are spoiled assholes who don't respect anything anymore''. Last time I taught in a high school I saw two girls holding hands and openly exchanging a kiss, and no one told them they were ugly dikes, or pushed them, or were disrespectful to them in any way. They were openly accepted, and acted like it. It gave me more hope for humanity than realizing smart adults in this thread still think hitting kids is acceptable because they can't evolve beyond ''I was raised this way''.
Yes. If you have reached this point where the only incentive he responds to is a beating, you are an abject failure. Perhaps consider foster care, because you have proven yourself to be unsuitable to raise a child. It implies that you are or have been in the past too dimwitted and/or lazy to come up with legitimate incentives. Children don't come like this; this is your fault. You have made the world a tangibly worse place and should feel bad about yourself. Now if a beating is merely the quickest solution to the problem... that's just selfish sloth.
Again. A fundamental disagreement. You will not change my mind or my position on this subject. I will not change yours. No matter what is presented, who studied it, what conclusions they drew, or how the conclusions were reached, neither one of us is going to sway from our decision and perspective. I have no idea whether you have kids or not. If you do, and you've got good kids, that's great, exceptional even. But don't for one second think I've ruined my children, or 'fucked my kids up', because mayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyybe five times total in their lives between the three of them, they've been spanked. You can't convince me of that. And, the offending behavior? Never repeated. Ever. After the spanking. So no. If you're trying to sit there and get me to say "OMG ur so right ill nvr spank my kidz again!" you're wasting your time. Just as I would be wasting my time were I to attempt to bring you to the conclusion that sometimes, rarely, but sometimes, there may actually be a good reason to spank/hit/swat/smack your child.
Cool. Go before a court, attempt to relinquish your rights and control and responsibilities of and for your children based on this right here. Let me know how that goes. Another option, of course, is to accept defeat and simply stop trying. That's always a good one, after all, nothing like letting an immature undeveloped mind run roughshod over one's property and finances and person for creating a stress free environment and a positive future. This acceptance of defeat is what causes so many of the shithead kids you see running around now. And still, I'm asking. What are the viable alternatives? What are they? All I hear is "Keep trying!" and "Be CREATIVE!" and "FIGURE OUT WHAT MAKES HIM TICK!" and other wholly empty platitudes. I'm not hearing suggestions. I'm hearing reiteration of the problem(s) but I'm not hearing any kind of suggestion for a plan to deal with it.
I'm not a fan of corporal punishment. I don't think it implicitly inflicts lasting harm on children who receive it either so I don't automatically judge parents who mete out a spanking every once in a while. However I hate this stupid fucking narrative that some people on this thread are promoting that anyone who didn't get spanked/beat/whatever was an out of control hellion. ("All the kids I know who are/were well behaved and polite got corporal punishment and all the kids who were out of control did not.") I think I got spanked less than five times in my entire childhood - and at least two of them weren't even from my parents - and I didn't have any behavioral problems. Maybe I was just more intelligent or more developed than a child my age but when I did something stupid I either got grounded or sent to my room then had it explained to me why my behavior was wrong, which worked.
Legitimate legal question: how CAN one do this? Do they actually have to wait for someone to like, send them to school with black eyes or touch them, or can a parent actually somehow admit they're in way over their head? I'm pretty sure the answer is "no, it's impossible" but that seems like a really flawed system. And to be clear, I'm not suggesting everyone who has spanked their kid is a sociopathic monster. I'm just saying it is a mistake we make out of selfishness, laziness, and the false sense that one is out of options. The idea of a child with whom there is actually no other option is really hyperbolic nonsense, so my response in turn was. I don't think there is ever actually a situation where hitting a kid is the ONLY recourse, and if so, congrats you have raised a sociopath. In reality, it's just the one that often strikes us as the most suitable course of action at the time.