Do you think that the rioters intend to kill people? I tend to think that they're just reckless and extremely selfish.
I'm pretty sure they aren't knocking politely on doors first to be sure their target buildings are empty before setting them on fire. They don't give one shit about who they hurt, and if they do hurt people, I can almost guarantee they would claim that the burn victims got what they deserved.
Generally, when the state decides to cancel somebody's right to life, there's a judiciary process to go through. Or, in cases of individuals presenting an immediate threat to others' right to life, you get the authorization of deadly force. I'm all for the liberal administration of beanbags and water cannons and teargas, and I'm not shedding a tear for any rioter who dies from a rubber bullet to the face, because only God can predict bullet trajectories and the like and it's your fault for putting yourself in that situation. But: "Do X and you immediately lose your right to life," where X is not an immediate threat to someone's life* that requires deadly force to stop, is not the action of a free country. As for martial law**, there's only one reason for martial law to be declared, as I see it: an existential threat to the state or state apparatus. Think civil war. I'm not worried about the lives of some chavs who think it's a great time to nab that TV they've been eyeing, nor am I concerned about their paper-thin logic in doing so; I'm worried about the limits of state power. *Life, not property. I think individuals should have the right to defend their lives with deadly force, and their property with the threat thereof. But not the state. **From Mars, in other words "military rule". I think we're throwing the term around a bit lightly here.
I understand what you're saying about drunk drivers. They're choosing to engage in unlawful behavior with the potential to cause harm to innocent victims. However, the intent is different. The drunk driver is hoping to get home safely without encountering anybody else. The rioter is leaving his home with the specific intent of causing trouble. Drunk driving, as dangerous and stupid as it is, is a victimless crime if the driver makes it home like he intends to. Vandalism, looting, and arson cannot, by definition, be victimless. I'm very uncomfortable with any government using snipers to control a crowd of any sort. It's not at all because of the "sanctity of life" argument that you put forth. I think that once you choose to join a mob like that and engage in those dangerous acts, you're not really concerned with anyone's life, including your own. If I trusted governments to use a sniper solution appropriately all the time it would be different, but the potential for abuse is too great for any government I know to be trusted with that power. In theory, it's a damn-near perfect response. With the lead rioters dropping around them, everyone else goes home pretty fast. In application though, it's how we create situations like Waco and Ruby Ridge.
This is why a crowd can never be taken too lightly, and it is but one of many examples scattered throughout history. I can understand and sympathize with both Nom and RCGT, but Nett said it best: Put out a warning on all of the media channels that continued violence will be met with overwhelming force, and publicize a timeline for compliance. THEN you start cracking skulls.
Yes. There are already confirmed deaths at the hands of rioters, not just "ooops you were in the building I was just trying to destroy with a gasoline bomb." I don't know the legal definition in England for what constitutes murder, but I don't think it would be a stretch for any of the perpetrators to be charged with it. On a lighter note photoshoplooter
Have any of you lethal force adovcates honestly thought about the logistics of such a strategy? I mean suppose it's your house or store getting vandalized and looted. While you're doing your best to try to protect what's yours, do you honestly trust that the authorities won't mistake you for a thug and kill you under the presumption that you're one of the rioters? Fuck, it'd be scary enough just living or working in an area where there was a riot going on, I couldn't imagine having to deal with potentially violent rioters and also potentially being shot by mistake by the people who are supposedly trying to protect me.
I have another awesome idea. The government should: Identify the rioters, take all their stuff, then burn down their homes! Eye for an eye and all
Count me in the camp of people that believe that the police should have immediately brought down the hammer. I can't begin to wrap my head around this "different culture/relationship" bullshit between the police and the citizens. People are dying. Property is being set on fire. Stores are being robbed clean. Where lives are not being destroyed, livelihoods are. I completely believe in the sanctity of life. That's why I am completely enraged that innocent lives have been lost. I do feel that lethal force is an unjustified response to looting and rioting. But I cannot disconnect the fact that they are a) endangering innocent lives via arson (almost enough) b) innocents have been killed (more than enough to motivate me to lay down the law with a swiftness). This is not a peaceful assembly. A civilized society cannot tolerate such behavior or the precedent that passive response sets. Implement an aggressive response and warn that past a certain time, lethal force will be used to restore the peace. These idiots may not realize the depth of the choice they're making (forfeiting their rights by interfering with the rights of others) but spell it out for them and follow it up with an unmistakable message.
Wow. And you all wanted to know how I came to the ridiculous conclusion that the vast majority of this board are privileged white men who have absolutely no idea what it means to NOT be a privileged white man? I have no desire to get into the conversation that Nom Chomsky, RGCT, Beefy Phil and maybe one or two others are trying to keep rational and sane. No, I want to talk about something else. I want to know something from all those who are shocked that this continues to happen over and over again in the richest countries in the world, shocked that those citizens who are "handed" everything they should want or need would rebel blindly and seemingly without political cause, shocked that people are so ignorant and filled with hatred and rage that they would be looking to do nothing but destroy whatever they can see and take whatever they can grab. What. The. Fuck. Did. You. Expect? This is a terrible situation and innocent people are getting hurt and it needs to stop, and many more people are going to get hurt making that happen, whether rightfully or not. I'm not going to argue that these people are clearly engaging in dangerous and criminal acts, and some kind of extreme force is going to be necessary to end it. Of course that's true, and it's way too late to be armchair moralizing about who's right or wrong. There's an angry mob hurting people, it has to stop. But how do you think you get to this moment? What makes AN ENTIRE FUCKING COMMUNITY riot and destroy without even thinking twice about who or what they're destroying, or even be capable of adequately expressing why they would do such things? Do you seriously think this is about getting a free bottle of Rosé? What I see here is a bunch of anonymous pseudo-libertarians who think everyone has a fair shake in every way, demanding that those who've been born into a life of shit with little chance of ever getting an education enough to actually understand what it is that they're raging against should stay in their fucking place and eat it. Fuck them, they're scum and criminals and they're stupid and poor and ignorant and only out for stealing property and hurting those of us who have two nickels to rub together. Some of you seem to think that taxes are charity. Some of you seem to think that corporations not paying taxes has nothing to do with the individual rich and/or their power to influence governmental policy. Some of you seem to think that the percentage of tax paid by the top 2% of the population hasn't changed over the last 20 years. Some of you seem to think that the distribution of wealth hasn't changed in the last 100 years. Some of you seem to think that if you can work hard and get a proper education and find a job that doesn't completely rob you of any hope, then there's no excuse for anyone else not to, regardless of circumstance. This is happening, and you'll get no argument from me that it needs to be stopped and I'm far too realistic to get into a debate about whether deadly force will be used. It will, and we all know it will, regardless of whether we're for it or against it. But if you think you're justified to sit in your life and judge that the people doing this, and the people who've done it in cities exactly like this in exactly the same way time and time again, are criminal scum and not the direct result of the stupid fucking economic policies that began (again) with Ronald Reagan and were ramped way the fuck up by GW Bush, then you're a damned fool. You cannot take more of the pie indefinitely and expect people to shut the fuck up and eat your crumbs indefinitely. They won't. At some point, some tiny stupid thing will happen and they will use it to rage, and maybe some tiny tiny percentage of them will actually understand that what they're raging about is the fact that the people they trusted have been pocketing what is RIGHTFULLY theirs - not handouts, mind you - but a rightful share of the profits incurred by doing business in the world. And I don't see more than a small handful of you who seem to have even the slightest understanding of that. ...oh, and by the way, anyone who wanted to argue that Reagan's administration was nothing but good for everyone? Maybe you want to take a quick look at the timeline of where the distribution of wealth for the top 10% began to climb out of fucking control. I never did and never will be the one arguing that the rich are awful people and they should give all their shit to the poor, many of you totally misunderstood that. I'm talking about the complete disassembling of our economy and your future by a greedy few who changed the rules so that they could take more, the rest of us be damned.
On a much lighter note, it makes me proud that my brethren across the sea are fighting back. <a class="postlink" href="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/food-and-wine/trends/trends-features/staff-at-london-restaurant-fight-back-against-looters/article2124514/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/foo ... le2124514/</a> Fuckin' rights, boys! Not only did they kick those cocksuckers out of their restaurant, they even fed the guests afterwards. Ha!
Oh, dammit. I just looked at the first page again and saw the, "No Politics." Though I'm not sure how to have discussions like this without politics, my apologies. As ever, delete away.
No worries... it'll stay. It was a very well presented post that contained information that was relevant to the situation.
As to your points, I agree with some of the basic stuff you're saying. In essence, they are poor, with a sense of entitlement instilled in them by the media and television that inundate them with the images of the rich and famous. Combine that with decreasing family values, and it's a volatile situation. I agree that the rich are getting richer, and the poor are getting poorer, and the middle class is fading away, and that will lead to a fucked up scenario; rioting, increase in violence, etc. The companies and the rich that run them are controlling the lawmakers, and that is a problem. That shit has to change, or this kind of thing will happen with increasing frequency and severity. I also believe that while that could be considered part of the reason they are doing this, it doesn't mean that they should be allowed to continue on or use it as justification for the death and destruction. Scootah and I chatted about this a bit last night, and he made a point that I agree with; the Powers That Be better take this as a clear indicator that shit is very wrong, and that they better fix it sooner rather than later. I also expect to see shit like this happening in the US in the near future as well; there are serious economic wrongs in the country, and they will cause problems.
Thanks, Ill happily judge the people doing it. Ill judge the ones killing and beating other innocent people, destroying decades old businesses, attacking police officers, setting fire to anything in sight. I have zero sympathy for their supposed economic plight. Because wealth, after all, is never accumulated organically and fairly, its on the backs of the poor innocent working man. But lets go with that retarded defense anyway. So what policies did old Reagan cook up that caused such a disenfranchisement? Lowering inflation down from double digits? Restricting the dollar to maintain the value? Unemployment down to an all-time low of 5.9% by the time he left office? Keep in mind, those were your precious masses that had stable jobs at that time. The economy continued to grow steadily until 2007. So what part of any of that gives to the rich and fucks the poor in the ass? A "rightful share of the profits?" What is does that even mean? What gauge do you want to measure it by? And I know people love to rail against the rich and lament about the poor, but its getting tired. Social justice bullshit doesnt work. Name one place thats flourishing from it. Cuba? The Soviet Union? Spain? Greece? The rest of Europe? The rich should pay more and give more? As opposed to what exactly? People that pay little to nothing and want a hand out? Please. Fuck em. Actually thats your entire argument.
So what exactly describes someone like me as "privileged?" Who granted me these supposed privileges? I didn't take anything from anyone to get where I am now. I worked for it, every bit of it. My success in life comes at the expense of nobody else - only the time and effort I've put into my education and career. How does the tax structure of the United States affect people in London to the point that they riot over a police shooting? What you're missing here is that it is an ever expanding pie. Wealth is not static. We are constantly creating wealth. You can look around at where you live and see the immense wealth that people have created through modern manufacturing in the past 100 years. People on welfare today are wealthier than my parents were growing up. You become wealthy a lot faster by creating value than by stealing from those who have nothing. By your graph, it started climbing during the Carter administration. It climbed about 5% during Reagan's two terms, and about 7% during Clinton's two terms. Why aren't you bitching about Clinton? Methinks you have a hard-on for Reagan.
Don't turn this into a political bashing thread. Discuss the data/info, but don't send it down that path.
Interesting read. <a class="postlink" href="http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Britain+riots+seen+reflection+broke+society/5236727/story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Bri ... story.html</a>