At the risk of wading into an area I don't belong, I wanted to address the bolded part specifically. Both of my older boys are still in high school. Neither of them has had anything really resembling a girlfriend or that typical high school sweetheart romance at all. Both have dated girls and then broken it off after a few weeks. When I ask them what's going on, just checking in, they give me an answer similar to what you've said here. "The girls are terrible, mom. They're insecure, they try to go through my phone, they freak out if I talk to other girls, they get mad because I'm focused on my homework, or they just want to talk about other people and gossip and just...No thanks. I'd rather play ball or video games or lift weights." I don't know what to tell them but it sounds like it doesn't get any better.
SuperFantastic, Toytoy, Clutch, and Danger Boy all summed up my feelings very well. I just turned 31 and am single. I have been on a few dates over the last couple of years, but none of them ever turned into anything long term. I have had very little success, but I don't hate women or anything like that. I have had to accept that I'm just not the type of guy who most women have been biologically programmed to be attracted to. I still consider myself lucky to have had some dates with some nice girls and a few short term relationships when I was in my early twenties, so I may not be beyond hope. But at this point I am not optimistic about having anything long term, and I have slowly learned to accept it. If it happens then great, but I am not going to go out *searching* for it beyond trying the online dating thing. But I have made an effort not to go overboard in how much time I spend on the dating sites, too.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/10/2...-the-answer.html?_r=0&referer=http://digg.com, Maybe this is what some of the men are angry about? The danger here is equating the rise of women with the decline of men, but in a service economy....women often have an advantage.
Like shimmered, I don't want to venture too deeply somewhere I have no expertise. I will say this, though: I don't think it's easy for either gender to find a relationship. Sex is one thing; dating is another. Who said that when it comes to dating, men compete for sex and women compete for a relationship? Any woman can get laid. Probably any guy, too, if your standards are rock bottom. In my purely anecdotal experience, though, fucking someone guarantees nothing. Not even that you'll see each other again. So I guess don't spin too far down the path that men are at the greatest disadvantage. Neither gender gets a free lunch.
I think the real important clause in Clutch's post was "I have a realistic chance of dating." There are plenty of great women out there, but for whatever reason women's standards for men seem to be far higher than men's standards for women. If a guy is a 6, he'll be happy with a woman who is a 6, but that woman won't be happy with anything less than an 8. There's the often referred to OKCupid dataset that indicated that women rate a staggering 80% of all men as less attractive than average (men on the other hand rate half of women as more attractive than average, and half as less). The consequence of this is that, as a guy, unless you're a solid 9 or 10, most of your interactions with women are going to be with a huge heap of women who aren't interested in you, and a handful of bridge trolls whose defects are so glaring that even they have to acknowledge them, and do so by opening their range from a 8+ to "merely" a 6+.
I'd hope we can hear from people who have had the exact opposite of what the topic of the thread is implying. I'm like most in this thread, early 30s with minimal dating experience, but unlike others I do crave dating and the traditional relationship. I see part of it as having to face fears and anxiety and all the harsh realities of real life. It seems to be much broader in our culture than just dating, as home ownership and having children is also much lower than previous generations. Just checking out so to say because they want to avoid the pitfalls of these once traditional life benchmarks. Part of me sees reasoning in this. Hell my parents stayed together my whole life but they fought all the time over finances, free time, and all the general stuff you do in relationships. That was stressful enough watching, let alone friends whose parents ended up getting divorced and had various levels of relationships with new people. When everything else has become instant gratification why even put yourself in a position to deal with anything stressful? I do think it gets better when deal with the opposite sex as you age. From your mid teens to mid twenties hormones and immaturity rule your life. Once I had been in the workforce for a few years Ive noticed a steep decline in both. Girls who were gossipy and would fawn over the "bad guy" types ended up maturing out of that stage more often than not. Me personally it wasn't until I was 28ish that I could feel my hormone levels decline and sex drive mellowed enough for me to start really enjoying the company of girls without sex being the abosulte forefront of my mind. I started gravitating toward female coworkers who had stand out personalities over looks. It's not all bleak.
Oh, one other thing I wanted to say: I think the trend reverses as you age. When you're 21, the women hold all the power (broadly speaking). Pretty much any guy will fuck/date a 21 year old, especially if that guy is also early 20s. Fast forward to mid- to late-30s, when people start to emerge from the divorce of their first marriage, or realize that they really ought to settle the fuck down. In that demographic, single, gainfully-employed men with their shit together really run the show. Of all the divorced couples I know, the men were the ones who hit the ground running and got snapped up into relationships really quickly. So I think part of it is youth and demographics. Also, I think people are on a spectrum when it comes to their need for companionship. You have to figure out where you fit. There's a trap in thinking that everyone in a relationship is happier than you are; again, in my limited experience, people in relationships can be INFINITELY more miserable than single people. Spend some time around two people in a bad marriage and let me know how anxious you are to settle down. Some people seem to have a far greater bullshit capacity. They put up with misery and fighting and spite all so that they are not alone day-to-day. Of course, not every relationship is miserable. But a large enough chunk of them are, and that makes me very leery of what I'm signing up for in the beginning before the cracks start to show.
This here is one of the bigger reasons why I'm still single. I witnessed a lot of people when I was in my early 20's who rushed into marriage and ended up being miserable, and inevitably ended up going through nasty divorce. Because of this I've been very cautious with relationships and I've never been in a hurry to marry. When I think about every woman I've ever dated, even the longer term relationships, I'm glad I didn't rush into anything. It's saved me a lot of misery and heartache.
Some people fall off bicycles and hurt themselves. So I will never ride one either. They are death traps and require balanace! I can't see why anyone would want to do that when you could walk or ride a car. Just so you all know, there are benefits to being in a relationship besides the whole not being alone part. Maybe my relationship is special because she works midnights, so I get 3-4 nights a week to myself. If there is something going on I don't like, I talk to my wife about it and we can usually find a compromise. I would never enter into a relationship with someone that didn't work on that level. The only part of being in a relationship that I don't like is dealing with her family.
While I'm not advising being overly cautious and/or paranoid, I am an advocate for self awareness. Having something bad happen once happens to everyone. If you continuously see patterns within your relationships, though, it's something to consider. For example, if you date one alcoholic, well...that sucks. If you find that your last five relationships have turned out to be with an alcoholic, you want to be paying attention to that kind of thing. I find that most people do not dig very deeply into their own "whys," so they never figure out the cause of their patterns. They're just stuck in a cycle of repetition. Nowhere is this clearer than in a relationship. You take a gamble at the beginning when the chemistry is high that when the hormones wear off you will not be fundamentally incompatible with each other. It doesn't take too many go rounds with, say, an addict before you're gunshy about the partners you tend to select.
I get the idea of eschewing or delaying marriage to pursue life/work/travel/enter whatever your goals are and if that's your thing more power to you. If you feel that your idea of a happy life involves a family then go for it. I don't think there needs to be a movement attached to everything people decide to do. Sure we all want to be part of a group and it is a way to make friends and find people to hang out with but what I read there was horseshit, even though I get the whole I'm not sure I really want to get married thing, though I wasn't always on board with it. People can be happy single or in a relationship, it's a choice. I just turned 39, I've never been married, I don't have kids, I've dated some, I work a lot. For whatever the reasons, mostly me but that really doesn't matter, I've never really gotten close to being married and now I'm trying to run a business, work on my house (or have work done to it), and I just don't feel like putting the effort in on a relationship. Many of my friends are married, have been married for a long time, and have kids so they don't get out as much and I do get lonely once in a while. Probably even more so after my last relationship. The thing is, as rare as it may be, I still see the married guys after work for drinks regularly and hang out with them and their families often enough that it never gets too bad, I work/travel enough that I never really need to worry about it. Sure it would be nice to have a wife/gf to travel with but while I know I'm missing something maybe I'm not that worried about it. What I think is messed up about this so called movement is the hatred/vitriol directed at women. I don't even hate those who have dismissed me over the years, in fact most of us are still friends and hang out or at least talk now and then. A lot of the guys posting there seem to have been burnt and forgot to get over it.
I wholeheartedly disagree with this. I've been at best an 8 in my "dating prime" which was in my mid 20's. 16 years later, I've had zero problem approaching and eventually dating women who would be considered out of my league. In my experience, looks are below confidence, humor/playfulness, interesting life, and engaging conversationalist. I think a lot of men aren't attractive enough in other aspects to make up for the fact they aren't classically good looking. This also flows the other way. I've met a lot of girls I was SUPER physically attracted to who were just horrible fucking people to be around. They had one redeeming quality, being visually appealing. Basically, there is so much more to being an appealing partner in a relationship than just looks and by reducing it to just those parameters, it works as an easy scapegoat.
Perhaps I got thrown off from your numbering scale, but to me your post was centered completely around looks.
I've checked out dating sites/craigslist out of curiosity, and ahem, perhaps to break a dry spell or two, but the profiles are such a turn off. I'm sorry I'm not 6'6, income $300k+ while being under 30, wanting to be a part of your 5 kids' lives, fix every goddamn thing in your house, and appreciating your obesity because of your inner beauty. Many of these weren't even written in a 'this is my ideal' kind of way, more like 'don't even bother with this BBW if you don't meet my criteria.' I don't think it's fair to say online daters match the real life norm, but part of the reason so many millennials aren't getting married is that people are more selfish, and constantly told they are deserving of whatever arbitrary perfection.
I can't speak to Craiglist, cause that seems like a disaster, but traditional non Bumble/Tinder/Hinge dating sites like OkCupid or Match are a rough sample set because most traditionally attractive women don't need something like that short of recently moving to a new city or whatnot. And the above average attractive women on those sites get BOMBARDED. My friend, who is pretty but not abnormally attractive, got an average of 25 messages a day over the span of 2 weeks or so. So that leads to both exhaustion and disinterest, as well as exaggerated sense of expectations. My friend met his wife on Match, and I had a set up a profile to help vet potential girls he was going on dates with and one night drunkenly paid for a month. I had a horrible experience, going on 3-4 dates, that I decided to just take my chances traditionally. I'm honestly kind of surprised how many of y'all fall into it. I figured with the number of married and other relationship people here it would be a bit more diverse. I personally have not had many long term relationships, but Ive dated extensively. Ive come to realize I'm very particular and have, at times, unrealistic expectations for women, but Ive had a couple genuine connections and enough positive experience that I realize a lot of it is patience. My mid 20s were a nightmare, despite having some success, due to confusion about who i was and what i really wanted, and just some unfortunate coincidences. Those of you in your late 20s, early 30s, Id stay open minded. Ive noticed the shift they always tell you about. Women my age become less bitchy and entitled, and more honest and interesting. Granted in my situation, I'm not quite ready to settle down so some of them that are raring to go for marriage NOW are a bit of a turn off, but still. Also, having my shit together and growing out of some fuckboy behavior also opens up a lot of younger girls. Ive been on multiple dates/relationships with 23-25 year old girls that have their shit together that probably wouldn't have talked to me when i was 27-28. Don't get me wrong, I still get frustrated and end up dating the "wrong" girls plenty of times. Ive just felt the dynamic change and I feel more faith in the "it will happen in due time" mantra. If you truly just dont have interest in relationships, more power to you. But if you've just been frustrated by dating in your 20s, which I believe is harder than ever due to many reasons, I would say hang in there. Also, Shimmered, tell your son that teenage girls are fucking idiots, but not that "it wont get better" crap. They keep that "I have other options, I dont NEED a girl" attitude and they will be in fantastic shape by college when girls start to be worth talking to.
To some degree, I can kind of see the MGTOW perspective, though my experience was somewhat different. Similar to what shimmered says she sees from her sons, when I was in high school and my early 20's I had a few semi-serious girlfriends, one I would even classify as a long term relationship but I found that I had a lot of trouble balancing of women's needs with the goals I had in mind. My imperative at a younger age was to get my degree and get out of Maine, I was like every other hormone-raging young man and wanted to get laid but came to the conclusion that there was more bullshit involved than I was willing to tolerate. Men and women when they are young, for the most part, have their heads up their own asses as I view it now in my 30's; it's been said already but what is really important to you at 21, generally doesn't show up on the radar in your 30's. In any case, at one point, in my early 20's, I stopped going out at night and pursuing women altogether. Not saying I turned into a monk or anything like that but I spent my time studying, working and working out and life in general all came together. By the time I was in my mid-20's I had achieved what I had hoped too. At that point, I started to open back up to the idea of relationships but in a very careful manner. Make no mistake, I am not topping the charts in physical appearance - being a quasi-ginger and all (for the record: I don't have orange hair and I'm not covered in freckles) but even in my mid-20's being reasonably well-traveled, reasonably well-read, successful (comparatively for others my age), and of reasonable appearance allowed me to meet and get to know a lot of women that I probably wouldn't have otherwise if I hadn't focused on success over sex at an earlier age. Nowadays, I'm married with kids; I can't fathom the thought of going back to bachelordom. I'm pretty sure, based on anecdotal evidence from friends and my wife talking about her still-single girlfriends, that I would not enjoy it. Dating websites were around and smartphones were just starting to become a thing when I was single but I see how they are used now and can't stand it. I don't know if I would say I pity the generation in their 20's right now but the dating scene looks like a complete shit show.
I'd be hard pressed to hold someone's relationships in their twenties against them. I tell my kids that your high school years are all about infatuation and short lived relationships (despite their frustrations), your twenties are about figuring out what kind of relationships you want to cultivate, and how you're going to offer value to another person while maintaining your own value and independence, and your thirties are where you generally start finding a healthy balance. Of course, I don't know my ass from a hole in the ground, but that's been my experience. I don't WANT my kids married young. I want them to become on their own, long before they ever try to become with another person.
My wife and I just had our tenth wedding anniversary a few days ago. We've always been a great fit, you could count on the hand of a carpenter how many blowouts we've had. She was the One for me, I met her at the fucking bar I worked at of all things. I waited a bit and didn't get married until I was 29. I had an extended period of being single before that I quite enjoyed, though I had a whoooooooooooole lotta one night stands in that time frame. I've met plenty of people who didn't find their right relationship fit until their 50's. Some people just don't want it, period. And that's their life, their decision some are happy being libertines, spinsters, etc. But sometimes the bug bites you late, just ask Clooney. Nobody thought The Great Salt And Peppered One could be tamed. However....you don't need to feel like you're in a club or demographic JUST FOR FUCKING FEELING A CERTAIN WAY ABOUT LIFE. That's what's so hilariously crybaby about MGTOW. Wounded dorks who went stag to prom and have carried that bitterness since being a fucking teenager are now walking versions of "Muh Feelz". Victimhood comes in so many loudly vocal and public forms these days, does it not? I think I'm glad I missed out on the entirety of what is online dating. 75% of it is a complete sham, the other 25% currently seems like everything less than a magnificently repulsive warthog gets harassed off the site faster than you can say "I'm different than than all those other guys". My friend did online dating for years. Now he's a 10/10 looks so he actually attracted the hot women on occasion, but he was also bluntly honest how many liars there are out there. About the way they look. About what they do. About where they live. Catfish city. It seems that the internet didn't make getting laid in life any easier so much as it simply changed the bullshit method.