Mike Brown shooting/Ferguson, MO

as i mentioned in my first post in this thread the 500 homicides on the south side of chicago every summer, the above statement applies 100%. that solution needs to be lead from the inside, and assisted from the outside the black on black violence can only be fixed from within with some external assistance. not controversial in the least.

now white police officers focusing their efforts/attention, beating up, harming and/or killing minority people? that's an external/racism problem. if you're applying your statement to this situation. then the assumption is every minority person accosted by the police has done something wrong. which is incorrect and racist.

not a minor distinction. that is a big deal, and it's a big deal in the community. it shows signs he was trying to do something, instead of working at wal-mart, or some shit, turning to crime otherwise. he's not contributing to this community problem.

 

i'm afraid things are worse than you quoted. 2005 numbers say we represent 74% of the prison population.

 

so the autopsy shows michael brown was shot 6 times and they were all from the front and 2 of the shots were to the head, one of those to the top of the head.

that is bad.

 

thanks man. i was tossing out numbers for the stark contrast. glad to be depressed even more by the subject.

 

i'll ask my question more simply:

you think black people's problems are their fault. clearly, this wasn't always true -- you'd be hard pressed to blame slaves for their situation.

when did racism stop being an acceptable excuse?

it's a pretty straightforward question. i'm interested to hear the answers, and i asked it in as polite a manner as possible.

if you can't answer that question, your views on the role of institutional racism aren't nearly fully formed enough to be engaging in this dialogue, so just stick to guns or whatever.`

 

i wonder why no one is talking about the other issue here. i offer for your consideration that this is just as much a socioeconomic issue as a racial one, because they unfortunately go hand in hand. there has been a lot of strong evidence and research from 1960 to present, clearly linking the increasing incarceration rates of black men (we'll just go with men here because they're easier to find data on than women) with the increasing poverty in the community. right alongside that are the studies showing a clear bias based on race and socioeconomic status when it comes to the disposition of those crimes. black men are being arrested more than whites, referred to courts instead of receiving remedial solutions more often than whites and they are serving longer prison times. when everything else is controlled for, the big deciding factors in the dispositions is race and socioeconomic status. you simply cannot state that the police would have handled it the same way had it been a rich white kid and that race doesn't matter. your naivete is cute, but 50 years worth of numbers don't lie.


i'm about to head out the door to go home right now, but if it's a discussion anyone would like to go down, i'll hit you up with links to support these statements when i get in to work tomorrow, because it's a really important part of the work i do, so i can find you a lot. off the top of my head i believe the authors of some of the studies i'm referencing here are brown (ses & crime), k.k russell (written in i think 99 or 00), and various articles from american psychological association.

 

no one is going to say that the black community doesn't have external problems. i'd go as far as to say that the external issues are only superficially better than they were when malcolm x was still alive. but i will also contend that the biggest issues in the inner cities are internal, and that they really got out of hand during the crack epidemics. this was also around the time leadership of "the black community" passed from people like martin luther king and malcolm x to people like jesse jackson and al sharpton.

 

to be honest juice, i think you're single-handedly derailing this thread. you've started arguing that black people are the primary cause of the disadvantages they face in american society in a conversation about an unarmed black kid getting shot by a white police officer. is that really the direction we want this thread to go in? you haven't quoted any sources or provided any evidence for such an intensely controversial perspective. i wouldn't normally single you out, but you're a mod now, so we kind of need you to keep controversial topics like this on focus.

i've responded to your post in spoilers below, but to be honest this thread would be better off if we let this part of the discussion die.

Spoiler

what does this even mean? so because you claim the burden of proof is on claimants of institutional racism, you're able to dismiss the role it plays on modern black communities without providing any evidence? surely you see how bankrupt this reasoning is.

there is so little logic here. we can only discuss the role racism plays in disadvantaging black communities and leading to these situations if the perpetrator is a nazi or in the kkk? what about the structural inequalities that derive from historical oppression and disadvantage members of the black community? what about the police force in this predominantly black community being 95% white? surely, we can recognise that that is most likely institutionalised racism. surely we don't need a nazi or kkk officer to consider the roles such structural barriers in society play in this and the many similar recent shootings of young black men by the police.

how do you even respond to this? what evidence do you have that any of those characteristics are the product of black communities not "figuring out" what other races already have? what a baseless and asinine thing to say.

 

how did we get to "problems with the black community" from "black teenager shot by white police officer"?

isn't that blaming the victim at an absurd level?

no one is accusing white communities of shooting too many teenagers and the problems white people have (like school shootings) are not considered to be the fault of the entire community.

the question at hand is how do we prevent this from happening again, or with such terrible frequency?
get the police out of their tanks, put down their assault rifles and meaningfully engage the community they serve. a community barbecue has to cost less than the gas for an mrap out of the annual budget.

it also has to deal with looking beyond the immediate situation. should an 18 year old have his life ended or ruined for some minor transgression? no, and a police officer engaged in their community would recognize that.

 

holy shit juice.

 

how do we define meaningful engagement?
how do we stop the shift in kids' perception of police officers from protectors to people who shouldn't be trusted? it generally happens - regardless of the race of the child - somewhere around 2nd grade from what i've seen.

 

i'm curious, do you think the minorities that are being incarcerated are innocent, or that they're just not as interested in going after whites who commit these crimes?

i'm not going to sit here and tell you that dwb and dwl incidents don't occur, because they do, and it results in a lot of needless harassment. still, i find it hard to believe that the incarceration rates are solely the result of institutionalized racism and that profiling has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that minorities commit more crimes. the argument that kids born into lower income brackets are disadvantaged and thus more likely to turn to crime is a legit one, but it's disingenuous to ignore minority subcultures that glorify crime and gang loyalty, and it's intellectually lazy to just blame the system for every statistical disparity. it would help if calling out these crack dealers and idiots who walk up to gas station counters with a gun for the fucktards they are was more than a fox news drum beat.

and yes, it is relevant to the headline because whenever these police brutality stories crop up they inevitably spiral into the larger issues. based on the evidence i've seen mike brown 100% did not deserve to be shot. that does not mean isolated and extremely rare cases should be a unilateral basis for judging this country's police force, and let's face it, the knee jerk reaction by the public to what the media decides to cover has way more to do with the perception of police in this country than how well the average cop is doing his job.

 

this is determined neighborhood by neighborhood and community by community.
i'm not saying this is an easy solution, but i think it's time this particular trend in american police is reversed.

 

i agree completely. the 'us vs them' thing isn't working - for anyone. no one should be a victim of police brutality, and overall, the communities in our country should be able to safely say that the police are working in the best interest of the community.


edit:
i should add that while i generally don't like hanging around people, i see a lot of good in people overall and am prone to giving too much benefit of doubt. this tends to make me see things in a rather rosy shade of 'shoulds' and 'why can't wes'.

 

i don't think juice should be vilified for being racist, anymore than i think parker needs to stop forming his opinions as if he's black. everybody here is sharing their opinions that are formed based on their own experiences. and for ever statistic that somebody wants to use to validate their point, someone else can find two to refute it. for this particular incident that started the thread, everybody that cites some "fact" about the case is also ignoring other "facts" if they don't suit the narrative. the sad fact is that a young man died, and it didn't need to happen, for any number of reasons. i think it useless to continue arguing this particular incident until all the facts available are presented. if this thread stays open because it's still a topical news item, maybe people could just link news items and evidence, as they are reported.

 

i am typing this entire thing from a phone so i apologize in advance if it seems disjointed.

i think the system as a whole is fucked up. to point to one thing and say "yep that's our problem right there" would be intellectually dishonest at best. speaking from first hand experience i know plenty of people who deserve to be in solitary confinement for the rest of their lives but aren't for one reason or another but the guy who got caught with a little weed or a little coke for recreational use is doing actual time. the four big issues as i see them are systematic racism, empathy, lack of future due to low job prospects, and absentee fathers. there was a boy the other day for example who was driving drunk and killed four people in my neck of the woods. this motherfucker got probation and his lawyers argued he was out of control because his parents never set limits. not a single day in jail. yet someone like shaneen allen is facing ten years for carrying a concealed firearm (which she had a valid permit for) over a state line and was honest when asked about it.

with the systematic racism, it has always been there for one reason or another. take a look at the comments from when obama was first elected to see what i mean. and this is an educated guy in a suit. when you have absentee fathers who do not put forth a good example you have people growing up idolozing gangsters and seeing drug dealers making easy money. making five grand in a week don't sound too bad when that is what you grow up around. when all you've got to do is move some dope and shoot a few people it starts to look real good. when white people see the black community destroying itself this leads to a feeling of superiority and apathy creating an endless feedback loop. one group is targeting the other because of perceived trouble. hell i get harassed all the time about a green card when people find out i'm not originally from the us. i can't imagine the shit parker goes through.

 

you know what? i don't feel the need to pussyfoot around this topic anymore -- if you'd like to ban me, you're more than welcome to. but this isn't simply an intellectual exercise for me, this is my lived experience, and i feel no compulsion to tone down my rhetoric to make the discussion more comfortable for a bunch of white dudes who have no idea what the fuck they're talking about.

seriously juice, think about -- really think about -- how comfortable you are taking a smug attitude when it comes to discussion institutional racism.

you ever hear that louie ck bit about how he's eating cookies with his daughter, and she keeps insisting they're called pig newtons? he can't convince her otherwise, no matter how hard he tries.

"what are the odds you would be right about this?" he laments. "i"m not even using my memory right now. i'm reading the fucking bag!"

you've probably caught on to the metaphor by now: i'm not spinning stats from wholecloth. i'm looking at the fucking bag. i'm looking at the cops who asked me what i did after i explained to them i was mugged at gunpoint. i'm looking at the racist invectives hurled at the president. i'm looking at my grandmother -- the woman who raised the man who raised me -- saying, without a shred of irony, that certain books "aren't for us niggers."

and you're telling me that it's all good?

what are the odds that you have any more perspective on this than me?

but, to anticipate your point, facts are the plural of anecdotes, and not being black shouldn't preclude you on having an opinion on race relations. after all, you're on the other side, right? and people are going to accuse you of benefiting from a system, than by gum, you're going to need something stronger than millions of people's lived experience.

here's the thing -- i don't think you've done a shred of research.

because if you had, you'd probably have come across information about the federal housing administration, and how their stated policy of discriminating against black homeowners is the single largest factor in the creation of the "inner cities" that you love to talk so much about. you would have brought up the decades that black people could only qualify for the sorts of predatory loans that completely crater wealth. you might -- if you were feeling saucy -- brought up the tens of millions of dollars in land that was seized from freed slaves, without recompense.

power is an institution. wealth is power. and wealth, by and large, is acquired and solidified through the acquisition of property.

after you'd made that argument, if you really were interested in sussing out these sorts of issues, you'd probably at least bring up the fact that schooling plays a disproportionate role in the success of a young person. then maybe you'd loop in the fact that schools are heavily influenced by neighborhood and property taxes, and that, even now, black people with an income of $100,000 typically live in the neighborhoods that white people making a third of that do.

and that people are still getting arrested for flouting those rules.

then, maybe you'd button that up with some personal stories, for color. like, maybe one about a person you knew who grew up in largely poor neighborhoods, and had to lie about his address to go to better schools. and how that meant that every time a teacher called home, he was terrified he'd be found out. or how it meant that something as simple as a playdate became fraught. or how it meant that he was alienated both among his peers at home and at school.

maybe that would even be your experience.

i didn't ask the question to be a prick, or be pedantic. i asked because from where i'm sitting, these institutions are far from crumbled, and if you're going to start saying that black people need to do better, i'm going to need a fuck of a lot better than "well because welfare."

so go on. explain how it all works.

i'll wait.