Monday Sober Thread: Edward Snowden and the NSA

Okay, here is the point I was trying to make with my previous post. If the Government, this monolithic inhuman entity we currently have that is so heavily invested in control and making money really wanted to go to the place you are all saying we're creeping towards, we'd be there already. The plan would be very simple: have 9/11, the war, another terrorist tragedy to tighten up even more, more war, and then another systematic tragedy to have a majority of the American people BEGGING for all the protections in the world.

The problem with the idea that the government is trying so hard to crawl up our asses is that a TON of people would have to buy into to wanting it. There couldn't be one or two guys doing it, because what happens when they die and retire? Someone under them one have to buy in. The fact is we're going to have ebbs and flows of government. Eventually another system is going to get in place, this one is going to get deemed too expensive, and we'll move along.

Let's not pretend like the Constitution is some goddamn die hard document that never has been or will be broken. We had fucking slavery in the post Constitution country well enough. Shit had to be amended how many times to finally get a working system going and there is STILL work to be done. On top of that, my point is "How is this shit really affecting you or anyone you know in a tangible?" Let's say that the government is looking at everything, Facebook, Text Messages, Blogs, Calls, Voicemails, Emails, Idiot Boards. What's really going to happen to you right now? Nothing. Even connecting with what Cult said, "I'm not in the streets protesting, because I'm in nursing school and raising a kid." Well fuck, sounds like he's living his life just fine. Cable TV, car, house, about to make some decent money as an RN.

Overall, if they do catch one terrorist attack, one future bombing or anything. It's completely worth it. Plus don't worry, the Government gets rich off our "Freedom" they're sure as fuck not going to do anything that prevents us from churning out cash.

 

This attitude drives me crazy and is the root of the problem in this country. The Senatorial and Congressional oath of office states:

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God." <a class="postlink" href="http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/Oath_Office.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/his ... Office.htm</a>

When the President takes the oath of office it states:

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States."

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.presidentsusa.net/oathofoffice.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.presidentsusa.net/oathofoffice.html</a>

It is NOT to be broken. It is not MEANT to be broken. The fact that it IS broken and HAS BEEN broken is, literally, a crime. It is to be preserved, protected and defended. EVERYONE who takes political office swears to do this. It is a living document subject to interpretation not destruction.

And a war was fought to end it and an amendment banning it was later added. That amendment and any others after were added via a process described in it. The entire thing was not thrown out.

Other than the fact that the idea of the Patriot Act, which makes all of this crap possible, is in direct violation of one of the items in the BILL OF RIGHTS and as someone stated earlier: "the fact that the administration (including Bush's administration) felt the necessity to set up a court to 'review' such programs (done in secret) tells me that they feel that SOME search and seizure is going on here." I honestly can't come up with an argument to refute what you are saying here. Right now it doesn't seem to be affecting how the average American is living their life. All I can say is that intuitively, viscerally, there seems to be something amiss, and there is nothing wrong with being vigilant. Which, by the way, does not make me clueless. Being clueless implies, to me anyway, a lack of awareness, not an inability to act.

So it's okay to give up some freedom for a little security. This plays right into the terrorists hands and, effectively, they win.

The government is not supposed to get rich off the back of the American people; this is a case of successful brainwashing. The American people are supposed to be free to pursue riches for themselves to keep and use for themselves as THEY see fit.

 

Hey, I'm not arguing with the idealistic view of everything you said. Yes they are not 100% doing everything they said they were going to do. I got that.

If you think the terrorist consider a win that our government is tapping our phones, that is the silliest thing in this thread. Terrorist want to see people die, eye for and eye for all the perceived wrong the infidels have done to them. They are not considering it a win because it takes us an additional 60 minutes to get through an airport to go on vacation. They want body bags and real misery. They don't give a shit if we cancel a marathon, parade, party or anything. They want headcounts.

You still haven't answered the question of what is the Patriot Act preventing you from doing that you reasonably REALLY want to be doing with your life?

And its not brainwashing to know the government is an operational corporation with the right to blow shit up at this point. It provides services, but costs a fuck ton of money. The people who are running it want money. The shit they test and try out costs money. So they want money. This is actually a cynical view of government. And there are plenty of people pursuing happiness and riches, the government WANTS you to be rich, because they get a cut.

But if you're telling me the government has any secret agenda to cut down on our actual freedoms that exclude things like killing people, tax evasion and giving secrets to other governments, you're wrong. Your children will still have the right to spend more time posting pictures of their avacado burgers with aioli sauce on instagram than actually eating it, while there are still a few hundred million people covered in flies with distended bellies running around.

 

I think this is wrong. The bodycount isn't an end in and of itself. What a bodycount does is galvanize a populace towards change. Terrorists are looking, first and foremost, to change the status quo. 15 years ago, the average American didn't need to spend any time contemplating the actions of people scraping out a living in the hills of Afghanistan - or what their Government may have been doing over there. Taking out the Twin Towers changed that. The average American is far more aware of foreign policy now. Their friends, lovers, and children are fighting a war. Their travel is harder. Their communication is exposed to more scrutiny. More of their tax dollars are spent on defense. Their police and security forces have broader powers. All of this represents change.

The overall goal is to push the state into ever more repressive acts, which alienates the civilian populace from the Government, eventually leading to regime change; or at least, that's the theory. (There's actually a name for this strategy of escalation but I don't have my reference books with me at work - anyone know it offhand?). So, from that perspective, I'd say that yes, the fact that some otherwise historically insignificant people managed to influence the actions of a superpower, to the point where the civilian population is protesting the powers that the state awarded itself in the wake of the attacks, is definitely considered a win in some quarters. I can't really see why you'd consider that idea 'silly'.

Well, I wouldn't mind talking some shit on Facebook after losing an online game. How's that working out for Justin Parker? It's not Patriot Act specific, but considering the charge is 'terroristic threats' it's in the same ballpark.

Which is scarier to me? The businessman avoiding his tax obligations, or the Government tapping my phone to ensure that I'm not?

 

The Government does not benefit from clamping down on our freedoms. The politicians won't stand for it. People without freedoms don't buy, which means less tax money, which also means less lobbyist tossing money towards their campaigns. For these little actions to mean shit, we have to abandon the entire 3 branch system of our government. Not going to happen. They hate the fact we instagram, hate the fact we waste food, hate the fact we live in excess. No one is getting to Allah and 40 virgins because we had a small policy change.

That's not going to change, what's going to change first is troop levels in those countries or way more CIA activity before the government starts taking our freedoms. Travel really isn't that much "harder." We have to get to their airport an extra hour early, take off our shoes, and pull our laptops, tablets AND cellphones out before we can go see boobies in Cancun. Yeah, we have to wait in line, while standing listening to our iPhone 20s debating if the new Jay-Z album is relevant enough. And that change you're talking about has always been internal. From the people inside. The government isn't going to go any farther than it has, due to the money (always follow the money) to make people want an entire regime change.

First of all, Justin Parker is a fucking idiot. No relation to this Parker. We need to hold people to higher standards. We overreact to a lot of shit media wise, but holy hell do we let people get away with a lot of fucking stupid. Also, I play League of Legends, 10 minutes in you're either having the best time of your life or the community makes you wonder if we're in a realistic hell. Lots of people make mistakes, but to make THAT mistake, well this kid is learning a lesson. Stupid shit needs to have consequences. 18 year olds used to be fucking adults, now all of a sudden you're retarded until you're 27 and a home owner? Come the fuck on! But that's a different topic for a different thread.

Which is scarier to you? Some CIA analyst rolling his eyes at you talking about fucking a chick from the bar or a pressure cooker bomb? The chances of anyone not doing shit worth shit even being flagged by the system is ridiculous. What you don't want police checkpoints for drunk drivers? Security at concerts or airports? These guys are running security. They. Do. Not. Give. A. Shit. About. You. Life. The "Government" doesn't have enough fucking people to listen to all the phone conversations. They have audio software listening for keywords/phrases, there is probably a 1 in a trillion chance anyone on this board, or the first 20 people anyone on this board can name will even pop up into their system. They do not give a fuck until you stop paying money or talk about blowing shit up. We're not on the verge of some goddamn police state.

 

Having a private conversation is an expression of freedom. The Government has taken steps to listen in on those conversations. Clearly the Government believes there is a benefit on clamping down on some freedoms. I think you might have worded your point sloppily here, because as written it seems to be in direct contradiction of the now rather indisputable fact that the Government is tracking conversations.

Also, there is no political cost if nobody finds out.

I hope this is hyperbole and you don't genuinely believe a person is killing themselves and others over instagram. Remember that the first IEDs are credited to the predominantly Catholic IRA protesting British rule of Ireland? Did the Irish hate freedom, or do you believe that radical Muslim terrorists are totally unlike every other type of terrorists we've seen throughout human history? 'They' hate us primarily because their cultural leaders blame us for their shitty quality of life.

You might be assuming that because you don't much care, nobody much cares. Here's a google search for patriot act protests. There are people in your country protesting the Government over legislation the Government enacted in response to September 11. These people have wider concerns than the new Jay Z album. They may not be in your social circle, but that doesn't mean they don't exist, or that a radical Islamic cleric can't run that same google search and show it to recruits as 'proof' of the effectiveness of terrorism.

And no Government has ever believed that a law it passed would result in regime change.

Should there be consequences for stupid behaviour? Yes. Should the consequences for talking shit over a game be charges of terrorism? Well, that's a matter of opinion, but mine personally is 'no'.

The tax evasion scenario was your own example. I thought it was interesting that you'd use it to justify the Government surveilling its citizens. As a white, middle class, straight guy with no ambitions to change the world, I'm mostly confident that I'm not going to be the target of any of this scrutiny. (Not confident enough to post anything particularly viotriolic online, but mostly confident.) But you know, the American security forces don't exactly have an untarnished record when it comes to, say, civil rights movements. And if a whistleblower happened to contact a journalist about abuses at Gitmo, or efforts to destabilize a democratically elected Government because it was unfavourable to American trade interests, or any of the other myriad examples of hardball politics around the globe, I think it's beneficial (and probably integral) to a free society that an attachment of the State can't immediately identify and punish everyone involved...

 

Citizens, yes. CNN or MSNBC, no. Because, this

comes a surprise to no one that would care, so CNN doesn't think it's worth reporting. Those places that do report it or citizens that act like they care are treated as paranoid or otherwise just being difficult. Government intrusion or inspection into our private lives has become so common place that when you object to the next intrusion, or try to argue that step 1 will lead to step 2, etc., you're mocked for not being progressive enough or some nonsense.

 

I neither voted for, nor support, Obama, but the dude campaigned on being against exactly these things.

 

Yup, that's what he "campaigned" on, too bad he hasn't done any of it in five years.

 

Edit: Not getting in on this

 

Geez if you guys don't like Obama, don't vote for him again.

Also, this is a fact, not a debate. Let's not act like there isn't political entity of who are trying to stop Obama from pissing in the morning just because they're against Obama. Jimmy boy and his crew stonewall everything he tries to do. Let's not act like Presidents who has half of the congressional system with a majority against him can enact his wishes like he's a dictator.

 

Interesting interview. The NSA phone-activating is particularly disturbing.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/18402-i-wont-be-kept-out-of-my-country-for-doing-journalism-exclusive-glenn-greenwald-truthout-interview" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/1840 ... -interview</a>

 

Interesting article. My ultimate fear is that people will listen to the government propaganda that says we must give up privacy to be safer. Many people buy into this which scares the crap out of me, it is the ultimate slippery slope. Its clear that people have to say we don't accept that argument. It'll be interesting to see if anything changes though.