No baby I love you a lot. Just sign this prenup HERE & HERE

Given your position on this, I'm willing to bet if you DID keep score, she would be kicking your ass.

 

Here's a question, if the default position was what a prenup is today, and you had to sign a document so that in case of divorce, on top of alimoney and splitting assets you acquired while married, you give up half of the wealth you accumulated before you got married, how many people would sign it?

 

I didn't get one.

Come on guys, I don't know who you are planning on marrying, or how little you know your spouse, or how traumatized you were by your parents' divorces. We are both grown-up rational individuals that want to build a life TOGETHER. It is no longer MY stuff and HIS stuff. It is OUR stuff. Yes, it is a big commitment - if you're not ready for it, or have doubts about the person you're with, just wait till you are ready. What's the rush to get married anyway?

...wwwah wah waaaah what if we hate each other in 30 years... Well, are you marrying someone rational who will agree that you worked together to acquire or upkeep your shit and thus both of you deserve your fair share? Or are you marrying someone who you don't trust?

 

Look, I'm going to go out on a limb and say most people trust who they married, yet sometimes the person they married slips and lands on someone's cock with their mouth ten years down the line. It happens. It doesn't always happen but it's effectively a known unknown.

While two people might be rational when they get married, I am not as sure they will be rational if shit hits the wall, and when shit hits the wall, regardless of fault, the legal system is completely slanted to one side. If anything a prenup can be a 'let's sort this shit out fair' agreement more than anything. I don't see how understanding that the world is not as perfect as you want it to be and shit happens and planning for shit to happen just in case is a bad idea. Trust doesn't even factor in to it. I have no fucking clue what kind of person I'll be in four years let alone 40, and while I really fucking hope my partner and I are still in love, shit can and does happen to people - good people and bad people. I don't think it's an insult, a lack of trust, or a lack of respect to understand that things can and do go wrong in life, and to be able to organize what would happen if it does.

 

No offense, but I've seen far more uncivilized break-ups than civilized ones. It's not about trust - it's about how you deal with the separation. If you're jaded or hurt or irrational for any other reason, you cannot have a rational discussion regarding mutually acquired possessions. I'm sure your relationship is different... just like every other happily married couple was... before they got divorced 2 years into their marriage because "he's an ignorant asshole" or "she's a crazy-ass bitch"...

I'm not cynical - I'm just smart enough to realize that the person you marry today will not be the person to whom you're married in 10 years. People change. And I'll be damned if I'm going to lose what I've worked hard for, just because someone doesn't want to play fair.

 

I think the world would be much better off if pre-nuptial agreements were a default requirement for marriage. In such a case, it would remove the stigma from asking for one, since it would be the "normal" turn of events upon marriage.

There have been all sorts of studies in behavioral economics showing that you can create increases in things such as organ donation, 401K enrollment, etc. merely by switching from an "opt-in" to an "opt-out" system. If one was required to opt-out of a default pre-nup (hypothetically: pre-marriage assets split according to pre-marriage ownership, post-marriage assets split 50-50), then we would see far more pre-nups signed with far less hassle.


People are generally rational. People going through divorce proceedings are rarely rational. And those getting marriage tend to irrationally discount the likelihood of later emotionally clouded decisionmaking.

I'm amused that you appear to believe that planning and foresight are the American Way.



I similarly think it's naive to write off any and all opposition as mere greed. It a perfect world full of rational agents, then yes, suspicion of prenuptial agreements would be fairly hard to defend. But in the real world, where women are saddled with a disproportionate amount of the tangible and intangible effects of childcare and home-building and there is emotional baggage attached to the agreements (a potential implicit accusation of golddigging), there is good reason for suggesting a pre-nuptial to at least raise an eyebrow.

You guys are all so eager to detach these decisions from their emotional complexity (including you, VI. "Don't get married" is all fine and well to say, but is unlikely to work in any actual relationship. You're asking people to choose between 1) being willing to be financially fucked over, 2) being unlikely to have successful long term relationships, or 3) find a unicorn). Just because emotions are intangible doesn't make them any less real.

 

Life happens. People die, get sick, kids come into the picture, you get a great job, you move, you lose your job, a family member in need moves in, parents get sick or die, the whole idea is to do it with the partner you're in love with.
But...
Life happens. Until a given situation happens, one can guess or presuppose how one will react to the stimulus, but the fact is that until you're THERE, you don't know. Ideally, you end up with someone whose values are so very in line with your own that you can weather the storm together, but I assure you, I learned the hard hard hard way, very very few people are as strong and willing to put in gut wrenching mind bending WORK for a relationship as I am. I have come to hope for the absolute best, but to recognize that life's curveballs are unpredictable.
Preparing for those curveballs doesn't make me an asshole, and it doesn't mean that I'm saying that if it fails it's HIS fault, it very well could be mine. It's me saying that if it happens, let's lay this out now while we're clear headed and thinking straight.

Life happens. I've gambled twice and lost everything. Goddamn right I won't do it again.

 

Yes to the pre-nup just because I hate the concept of "I have grown accustomed to this style of living and there for I want half his shit" that gets tossed into cases. If I have more money coming in, I want to have most of my money coming out. I'm not saying she should get zero, but let's say I'm making 10 million, she doesn't need $5 million. $250,000? Yeah. If there is a kid involved that ups it, but half? No way. She can still work and make her own money.

Why is Kobe's wife getting $150 million? He has busted his ass to get that money, unless she's helped him with his physical training, jumpshot or helped the Lakers organization in someway I have no idea about, 50% $150 is way too much just because she had his kids and has been married to him. You think she doesn't have a maid and nanny? How much of that is actually going to his daughters and not her wardrobe, nice house and/or cars? 5%? Its just silly that he did not have a pre-nup. What's even more silly but a wide margin that Russel Brand is getting $15m from Katy Perry.

I get what people want to say about "Don't get married" or "Learn to work it out." But let's be clear here, the divorce rate in America hovers around 55%. That's across racial, and income lines. Well, its actually lower in the lower class because they get married slightly less. The person coming in with less just might fall out of love with the person, get into a fight about leaving and take half to spite them. That's not counting one of them being an asshole and/or cheating.

I see pre-nups as just smart because money can't be used to actually hurt the other person, especially in cases when that person doesn't actually need it.

 

Have you guys never said to yourself: why are those 2 getting married? That's a bad idea! ...and then you watch the clusterfuck 5 years later.

Maybe I worded it bad, but prenup to me is like a flimsy coverup bandaid to try to avoid the main problem - people marrying too early, when they don't know the other person yet. The real tragedies of divorces that I have seen are not whose house/car/whatever it is, it is what it does to the kids and families. If you think a prenup will save you from an irrational spouse that's intent on destroying your life, I don't know what to say. The worst manipulation I have seen was not through finances, it was through people, and worst of all, children.

Many of you rightfully said: you never know what will happen in 30 years. That is correct. But I don't think it's such a gamble/risk as many of you are making it out to be. There are usually clear signs if someone's crazy/cheater/domestic abuser/addict. They may not be obvious to you at first when you are infatuated, but hopefully after a while you figure the other person out. Based on what I have seen in my spouse, he is a very strong character, and very fair. We have also been through some deep shit together before we got married, and we held it together. I have seen him handle conflicts, know how his past relationships ended. And I think if more people did the same thing, there would be a lot less divorces, and resulting clusterfucks, which is what I think you all are trying to avoid with the prenups.

 

I'm sorry honey, but are you suggesting that being crazy/unfaithful/abusive/an addict are the only reasons that people get divorced?

(And there aren't always signs that someone is a domestic abuser until you're in that situation. I hope you never have to find that out first-hand.)

 

It won't, but it'll damn sure make it so you don't have to start from scratch. So that your kids don't have to come do mommy or daddy's shithole apartment when they're on visitation, because the other spouse got everything and then some. It takes away things you COULD fight over, so you get at least your bare minimum.

One would think, but no.
You don't know what's coming.
You have no idea.
Ideally, yes, your mate is on the same page you're on...but often that's not the case.
And to be honest, it's not uncommon that people stop investing in one another.

Angel's right, I hope you never have to find out. My second husband treated me like gold. I was loved and spoiled. Until one day he decided he didn't want to anymore. The day he realized that life was hard and would kick you in the nuts. When he needed to spend energy on nurturing something, it was his alcoholism and drug abuse, not our relationship. He didn't find strength in marriage. He instead found it in violence. Some people find it in adversity and they rise up and rise together. Many don't.
Don't want to need an prenup? Make good and damn sure you spend every day for the rest of your life letting your partner know you love him/her, and your partner needs to do the same for you.

 

Up here is the point .

And here is where you are.

 

no Angel, it was previous posters that suggested those things as divorce worthy, and while we (hopefully) can all agree they likely all are, there are more reasons, I just did not find it necessary or helpful to list them all.

But since you all want to talk about domestic abuse: Do you have to MARRY a domestic abuser to find it out? Because people don't just suddenly wake up one morning, with no warning signs whatsoever, and decide to beat others up. I had a close friend who was domestically abused, but fortunately they just lived together (and she dumped his ass after it happened). If they were married? It would be a mega cluserfuck, prenup or no prenup. Lesser clusterfuck with the prenup? Possibly, but still a clusterfuck. I am very sorry bad things happened to a lot of people on this board, but don't you think perhaps being young and inexperienced and marrying too early contributed to it?

What I am trying to say, I think it's better to focus on minimizing the chance of divorce, rather than focusing on trying to predict how you want your finances be separated 25 years down the road. When shit hits the fan, okay, it might be easier to divide your finances, but it will still be such a giant clusterfuck...How do you divide friends and children? There's no prenup for that.

And now I'm off to do some actual work, before it gets to the point that I'm gonna have to post my tits to get my rep back.

 

I'm more inclined to agree with VI for people getting married for the first time, especially when they're young and don't have children. Like, what are the benefits of getting married? If those things don't outweigh the desire to protect your assets, don't get married.

But, for older people, and those getting remarried? Especially those with children - hell, yes. My father busted his ass his whole life, loved my mother like a love you have never seen. While my father was finishing medical school, my mom worked to support them. After my older sister was born, my mom stopped working. Well, my father died this past year, and my mom is in her early seventies. It's laughable to think she would get remarried. But, if she starts dating someone, and then they start talking about marriage? I will make damn certain I tell her to sign a pre-nup before some dickhead ends up with my father's (and her) money. And, not just because I think it should go to my sisters and me, but because it would feel shitty towards the legacy of my father's hard work.

You probably should just go ahead and post them, just to be safe.

 

My pre-nup will bar any TiB tit posting by my significant other.

I guess the way that I feel is that divorce is inevitable in a statistical sense, if not an individual case-by-case sense. It will happen often when it's available, and I don't really want the sort of world where there are artificial barriers against it (i.e. I'm-staying-in-this-because-The-Church-said-so. Anyone in a Boston Irish family knows at least a few of these cases). If it's going to happen, I think it's in everyone's best interest to try to minimize the personal and social cost.

Everyone thinks things like divorce are for other people, the sort who don't plan or don't think things through or knowingly stay in abusive relationships. You know who else thinks this? The people who end up getting divorces. We're not as special as we think we are, and the statistics apply to all of us.

 

The fuck they don't.
It wasn't just me who didn't see it coming, everyone who KNEW us didn't know he would snap like he did. It was an utter surprise to literally every person who knew us. Every. One. Of them.
Hell, they honestly thought I'd be the one who bit HIS head off, not HIM be the one who'd hurt me.
Living together before you're married is no guarantee.

 

So I know that the oft-quoted statistic of the current divorce rate being around 50% is almost certainly inflated and not representative. But let's take half that number.

Just about every single couple that gets married goes into it knowing that they are going to stay together forever, that they aren't going to become a statistic after a short amount of time, tooth fairies, rainbows, and unicorns, etc. Even if they consider divorce an acceptable means of resolving marital conflict, even if they sign a pre-nup, very few people go into marriage with the notion that it's a temporary set-up (or if they do, they hide it). Whatever the real percentage of divorced couples is, that's how many were wrong. If they didn't sign a pre-nup, they didn't worry about things going sour, they went all in on the biggest bet of their lives and they lost, with serious financial hardships to follow. Simply ignoring the risk - with serious financial consequences on the back end - isn't a solution, isn't going to prevent divorce, and is going to make you feel awful stupid if you're the one holding the short end of the stick.

How is recognizing human fallibility and caprice somehow denigrating the ideal of marriage? To be frank, I have the capacity to earn a fair bit of income in my life, depending on what exactly I choose to do. And considering that where I live right now, co-habitating couples are legally indistinct from married couples, a pre-nup or cohabitation agreement would be high on my list of priorities.

Giving someone the choice between no pre-nup and no marriage is pretty much like telling people to simply never have sex if they don't want kids.

 

You DO know what a "Golddigger" is, right? In the scariest environment, it's a psychopath (man OR woman) that uses a rich person for their money, and will cheat them out of it any possible way they can. They're just a con artist posing as arm candy for people with low self esteem. And like a psychopath, when they're done with you they take whatever theyve taken and fuck you.

That, is one of MANY good reasons for a pre-nup. Adults can marry each other early or prematurely or just stupidly, because they are adults and can make up their own mind. Many adults go into marriages KNOWING they're going to be miserable. Hell, they're laready miserable. Do you know WHY they do it? Because they're pathetic and afraid of dying alone.

In my mind, what a pre-nup does is shorten the torture of the long, backstabbing horror show known as Divorce. With it, there is no screaming over a mediator or bitching about who gets the What. It's not for most couples, but it IS a good thing when used in the right situation (again, Golddiggers)

 

I'm marrying a Modern American Woman (1) - the most spoiled, entitled segment of humanity the race has produced, with entire industries such as Hollywood (2) and Madison Ave dedicated to convincing her she's a precious, unique snowflake that deserves it all, and that if she doesn't get it, there's someone else to blame and it's never her fault. Who initiates between 70-75% of all divorces, across several decades and dozens of studies. Who receives upwards of 95% of the alimony, and who will receive custody in 100% of the cases, if she wants it. Who commits paternity fraud in 8-10% of all live births, again across multiple studies. You're damn right I don't trust her, and you're damn right I'm getting a pre-nup, and you're damn right I'm getting all alleged kids paternity tested before signing on to 18 years of support (3).



(1) Hear her roar!
(2) Eat, Pray, Love.
(3) Later find out it's not your kid? Too bad!! You're on the hook anyway, regardless of who the real father is. Nor will her fraud ever be penalized.

 

Ok, but you should add something about how you met if you want to use these as your vows.