Re: Occupy America I wonder if there is such a thing as Financial Darwinism. Because, I feel that digging yourself into a six figure hole over what I'm presuming to be a Liberal Arts Degree* may well qualify. So, the middle aged folks, whose retirement was wiped out by asshole bankers and are in serious financial straits? Yeah my heart genuinely goes out to them. The dumbass 20 year olds who chose to drop over 100k finding themselves? Not so much. *I say that because quite a few of 99% who are unemployed with the aforementioned six figure student loan debt didn't mention what they majored in, but I'm wagering it's not engineering or medicine. Those folks don't have much trouble finding jobs for some strange reason.
Re: Occupy America We get it. Life sucks for a lot of people. There isn't 1 magic answer that will solve it. We could squeeze every rich fuck in America dry, and guess what? Life would still suck for some people. I live in a country (albeit for not that long now, but I have had contact with people who have lived here for years) where people have the shit taxed out of them. The middle class in America have no idea what low taxes they are actually paying compared to even low wage workers here. And you know what? Things still aren't perfect here. People still die because they can't have their medical problems diagnosed, even though they have access to medical care. People can't get work, even though there are jobs out there, because they aren't qualified. There are still alcoholics on the street, homeless people. All in this "socialist paradise". There will always be problems. Imagine a flickr stream of this: Spoiler I have no access to non cholera infested water I have no access to basic plumbing I have AIDs, and was forced to undergo traumatic vaginal torture at the age of 13 I was raped by soldiers, and my two sons that did not die of malaria were forced to be child soldiers. I will die by 35 I am the real 99% Additionally, all this "it is the 1% who is responsible" scapegoating actually reminds me of something that I heard in an interview with John Denver's tour manager. Back in the late 1970s, John Denver was on tour in England, middle of December. Nothing was going right. The busses were getting lost, hotel reservations were mixed up, equipment was getting lost. Everyone was angry, even John Denver, a famously calm guy was getting pissed. Tensions were boiling over. They finally confronted the tour manager and expressed their frustrations. The tour manager said "look, I am going to call up our headquarters and figure out what is the problem". So he called everyone together the next morning and said: "Look everyone. We found the source of the problems. Eric Parker screwed up, and he has been fired, so things should get better from here." And everyone was happy. Things got better right away. The problem was gone, so nothing bad could happen. But John Denver, the kind soul he was, went up to the tour manager. He was feeling guilty about this poor guy getting fired, and started asking if Eric had children, as Christmas was coming up, and he didn't want the kids to not have presents under the tree. The tour manager said "John, I made him up. There is no Eric Parker. I told everyone he was responsible so there was someone to blame, and told them I fired him so that everyone would be happy. And it worked."
Re: Occupy America I suspect the Occupy America movement is merely step two in what could be a major revolution in American Politics. The first step was the 'Tea Baggers.' Let me be clear, I am not voicing support or dissent for either group, just looking at it from a political science point of view. Usually, prior to a massive revolution (and I don't mean an armed revolution, there are plenty of peaceful revolutions throughout history as well), you have these types of minor uprisings - first within the system (Tea Baggers), and if that doesn't 'work' - depending on the aim of the revolutionaries, the next step is usually 'outside' the system - such as these Occupy America protests. One of two things will likely happen: either the current political process will co-opt the 'movement' successfully, in which case you will see very minor 'reforms' of the type that are being advocated, or the 'outside the system' proponents will find a 'leader' which will probably solidify some of the ideology. I agree with a lot of posters here, there are a plethora of 'causes' that are being championed by these 'occupy America' rallies, so it's really hard to get a read on it. My guess is there will likely be more significant demonstrations coming in the future, and I'm quite curious as to what impact they will have on the next presidential election.
Re: Occupy America Apparently Occupy Wall Street has cost NYC $1.9 million in police overtime in three weeks. Occupy Philly has supposedly cost $164,000. Could be warranted. Could not be. Just another thing to consider. (Link)
Re: Occupy America No, people can complain. But what do people expect to get? 100k 10am-4pm jobs right out of college or high school? That times will always be perfect? I am sure that more than a few people there think Sweden is a perfect place because everyone has health care, and they have high taxes and all that shit. So lets say the US switches over to a Nordic welfare model. You know what happens? People still won't be happy. They won't have their perfect life that they wanted or feel they deserved. People are having the wool pulled over their eyes by idealists who think that the answer is simply "eat the rich" and most importantly the government. My point in my now un-editable post above was: People just want a single thing to blame. It works well to take the "haves", blame everything on them. It gives people a simple target to attack, rather than bothering to look at the complex issues that brought us to where we are. I am sure everyone in the Government is breathing a sigh of relief. People seem to have forgotten who they should actually blame, and the legislative branch is loving it.
Re: Occupy America Bing bang nail on the forehead. For the most part, this whole Occupy Wall Street is an identity thing. Everyone there just wants to be seen as the kind of person who goes to protests, and "cares about cause x" (and y and z and q and r). Not to mention, there are so many demands, with no organizing force, that it might as well be called "Go Complain About Shit on Wall Street." You aren't the next Ghandi, you're not ushering in the next era of social change, you're doing nothing but thinking you're affecting something. They just don't get it. There are a ton of problems in the world, but this is doing shit for them.
Re: Occupy America Hey, you think my generation is entitled? Who sold them that storyline? Who are the people bitching about their Social Security and Medicare and kicking the can down the street for the next generation to pay? It ain't us, that's for sure. I don't know if I would go this far, but the current two-party system has reached more than a little bit of a head. It's ridiculous that there's no (viable, competitive) party for the fiscally conservative and socially liberal, a demographic that I suspect has reached critical mass.
Re: Occupy America I think it is time for America to take a step back, and have some real self reflection. By that I mean take a look at the basis of the government: The Constitution. It is time for a new constitutional convention. I remember a Dennis Miller rant from 1998 that more or less went:"If you took Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and the rest, showed them around the world of today, strapped them into a Concorde and had him in Paris in 5 hours, and then told him 'we haven't changed the constitution since you guys wrote it'; they would say 'WHAT THE FUCK! ARE YOU PEOPLE RETARDED? YOU ARE STILL USING THAT OLD THING?" Our government is based on what is arguably on of the most important documents in human history. But you know what, lets change it up a bit more. Since the 1787 we've only officially added 17 things the government could do to the very basis of our governmental system. A country that survived a Civil War to determine the scope of the Constitution, and it hasn't really changed. A country that has expanded to thousands of times the size of the original colonies. A country that has gotten into world conflicts, and has seen massively changing demographics. Most other western countries have had the chance to change the fundamentals of how their government works, such as adopt a parliamentary systems, and create constitutions that reflect what is really going on with their demographics, and what humanity has learned since black people were counted as only 3/5ths of a person.
Re: Occupy America There's nothing to stop a Constitutional Convention from falling into the same problems as normal politics (like special interest lobbying). In fact, since the stakes are higher, there's even greater incentive for that behavior to take place. Want to get depressed? Read Bryan Caplan's stuff on public choice theory ("Myth of the Rational Voter").
Re: Occupy America Youve already answered your own question, that's what Amendments are for. Not to mention the thousands upon thousands of other laws that are passed on a local, state, or federal level. And the whole "let's have a fiscally conservative, socially liberal" party? Isnt that what the Libertarian party(ies) are for? I don't know if another party is the answer, you'd simply have a 3 way fight instead of a 2 way one. These arent the first protests in US history. In the 60s everyone thought there would be a revolution. There wasn't. Now everyone again thinks there's going to be one; there won't be. Anyone notice how there's no protests or "movements" when things are going well? It's outward expression of current frustration and eventually, it will blow over. The reason why Western nations, America especially, don't have a revolution or coup every few years is because of elections, not in spite of them. But then again that's sort of the point isn't it?
Re: Occupy America A bunch of people with nothing else to do and no defining motives want free shit and to be coddled from cradle to grave. Yup. That about sums it up. /Thread.
Re: Occupy America I have no idea what you're trying to say here, my point was that I don't know what these people are protesting, women's right to vote and abolishing slavery are pretty clear cut goals. I actually like the comparison though because I think a lot of the modern feminists are just like the OWS people, disjointed and I don't really know what they're fighting for anymore (I'm not saying all feminists, but some are). As has already been stated the banks paid back and the TARP program was actually profitable for the government. I still agree that it's bullshit they got the bailouts, but probably for different reasons than you. My point was that the colleges set unreasonable expectations for their students and make it sound like life will be all hunky-dory once they graduate, they're the ones that are charging a price tag their graduates shouldn't be paying and yet all the hate goes to the greedy banks. I don't think the schools should even be legally held accountable, I just think it's ridiculous that the banks get all the hate for asking for their money back but no one points a finger at the institution that set the price.
Re: Occupy America My view on it is that the prevalence of bullshit in the movement is the strongest indication of its legitimacy. ...wat? Hear me out. Pretty much any protest you can conceive of will draw out the granola eating counter culture types who love rhymes and bongo drums. In fact, they'll be the first ones out. Most protests play through the grateful dead catalogue a few times and go home. But OWS has been going on for weeks and is getting stronger and spreading. Ultimately it is because that when presented with a choice between the hippies and the bankers, there are a lot of people in this country that would rather hold their nose (patchouli is a helluva drug) and stand with the hippies. The fact that these universally-mocked people are finding allies speaks above all else to the sentiment among the majority of Americans that the status quo is not ok. At this point that is really the heart of the protest and its response: those that object to the status quo, and those that think it's ok. Occupy Boston just got broken up last night on the Rose Kennedy Greenway because the city had recently done extensive landscaping on it and didn't want a crowd of people to trample it. I don't think you could possibly invent a better illustration of "we think the status quo is ok" than "gentlemen please, you're killing the grass." So yes, at this point the movement lacks focus, and is a mishmash of a whole lot of things. But if it can maintain its momentum I expect it to undergo an ideological reduction to the most important and broadest based grievances of the population, and it's at that point that you'll start to see some ideas that really challenge the establishment, as opposed to just yell at it. Ultimately I expect it to boil down to the following issues: -The degree of control that corporations, and Wall Street Financials especially, can exert control over the political process through lobbying -The leveraging of corporate size and legal power to engage in anti-competitive practices, both against competition and against labor -The capturing of profit without creation of commensurate value -The tax burden of the "investment class" vs the working class (see corporate tax rates, capital gains rates, top marginal rate, etc) -The concept of a financial institution "too big to fail," and the concentration of the stability of the global economic system into a few private hands It's starting to attract some legitimate players, and I think those players will bring focus and drive to it. It's one thing to have a liberal arts major yelling about "greed and stuff, man," it's another to have a Nobel Laureate in Economics speak about the inequities in the system to a crowd in Manhattan. I ultimately expect the student loan shit to be dropped, because that's really just the pet cause of college students, but there are still huge issues that need to be addressed, and that resonate with wide swaths of the American public. I don't like the "we are the 99%" tumblr mostly because it's filled with college kids who had an easy major, but these kinds of stories are the ones that are really going to drive this thing. If you want something more specific than the generic signs-on-cardboard, there's this
Re: Occupy America I'm not very involved with the whole movement, mostly because I just don't fucking understand economics. I know that in a general sense that something is really fucked up and I'm angry about it, but if I went down there and joined in and was picked out of the crowd to be interviewed, I would sound like a fucking idiot. I have a feeling that's what a lot of people down there are like, but what I think the point is is to put enough pressure on the people who do know how to fix this shit and just don't want to, but now they'll have a reason or else they won't feel all powerful anymore when they lose the next election. I don't think the motivation is "we have the ideas to change things and you don't," it's "we know you could be doing more to fix this but you aren't because you're the ones profiting from this mess." What really annoys me about the critics (not to say that I'm a complete supporter of theirs' either, but I'm definitely more on "their side" than against it) is the crack that has been mentioned in a few posts here and everywhere else it's being discussed about "Well, if you wanted to be employed, maybe you shouldn't have gotten a liberal arts degree and gone into finance. DUHHHHH." The funny thing is that out of the millions of people in this world, not everyone has the same interests, skills, and abilities. Sure, even I can laugh at the girl who's complaining because she wasn't handed a job in theater, but looking at my own experiences, a couple years ago having aspirations to go into something other than being a doctor wasn't laughable. I didn't think it was going to be easy to get a job in either kind of publishing or communications, but without being too cocky if I had graduated from college with my qualifications the same year I graduated from high school, I'm pretty sure I would've gotten a pretty good entry level job right away. That year was one of the highest years for ad revenue with magazines ever, and not even two years later I watched dozens of popular titles fold and hiring freezes put into play and tons of layoffs. I understand there are other factors into that particular industry's struggles besides government fuckups, but then when I tried to get a stupid "day job" type of job, I found myself competing with businessmen who had owned stores and teachers and nurses to be a cashier at a bakery. I really want to know how blown out of proportion the complaint about student loans has gotten from word of mouth and media manipulation, because I thought what the argument was that it was drilled into our head that we had to go to college or we wouldn't get a job (and we had to go to a good - ie:expensive - college to get a good job) and got all of these student loans and now we can't even get minimum wage jobs. I don't think most people are asking for $50k senior level positions straight out of college like so many (older, employed) people are claiming. What everyone I know wants is to get a $27k entry level job even somewhat related to their field, and to not be expected to work for free for YEARS in order to be considered for the jobs that three years ago were reserved for and given to people in their position. And then if people start getting actually paid for these jobs, maybe there wouldn't be such incredibly fierce competition for the shitty $8/hr day jobs where a lot of people can't find work. (Which pushes the people who usually take those jobs into even shittier jobs or welfare.) Anyway, overall I think it's pretty exciting. Even though it's not being handled very well on either the protesters' or the police's end, I get the feeling that it's going to result in something, I just don't know what.
Re: Occupy America Think this has anything to do with it? Spoiler Congressional reelection rates, 1964-2010 <a class="postlink" href="http://www.opensecrets.org/bigpicture/reelect.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.opensecrets.org/bigpicture/reelect.php</a>
Re: Occupy America Delete if this gets too political, but I want to address a couple of reps together. No, I don't think the Libertarian party or Ron Paul fits this bill. Even disregarding their corporate funding (Koch brothers anyone?), they've just betrayed too much of a lack of understanding. Dismantling the IRS or the Department of Education? Breaking down Social Security? This kind of shit isn't fighting the new battle, it's taking advantage of a political crisis to revive a battle that was lost with the New Deal in the damn 1930s. Hell, man, I hope so. Not necessarily for redistribution of wealth or universal health care or "no more golden parachutes" (though that last one would be nice), but to inject some level of sanity and compromise back into our system. Both parties have grown disconnected from reality, playing ridiculous shell games with words and money to get votes. It's like that scene in Footloose where the two guys are playing chicken with tractors, except with the U.S. economy and the future of my generation. Ultimately, though, people get the government they deserve, and I'm not sure we deserve such a good one right now. People voting and thinking based off soundbites, their entire schemas basically a list of partisan talking points. My current generation (Millenials) is much better about thinking about this kind of stuff, I think - the smart ones anyway - but it's gonna be a while before we get the helm. Spoiler http://www.stonekettle.com/2011/08/so-you-hate-debt-ceiling-deal.html ^ Overtly political blog post, I don't necessarily agree with everything in it, feel free to PM me to discuss it.
Re: Occupy America I'll stop you right there. The protestors are being paid. They are being paid. And just once more so it sinks in... They are being paid. People are giving them money to protest. And then other people, like the unions and the democratic party are trying desperately to claim credit for the protests.