Re: Occupy America This is true, as far as the bank fee goes, but harkening back to something I said earlier in the thread, while OWS is not responsible for the change in policy, it played a part. How many times have you said to yourself 'hey, this is not right' and then promptly decided not to do something about it because you thought you were the only person that felt that way? I've done it a million times. What makes OWS interesting, and potentially the bank fee thing is people are starting to see that they're not alone in their anger. Does this mean OWS is successful? No, of course not. It may change nothing on its own. And I'm not saying anything needs to change, I'm just a neutral observer. But now that people see that there are others that feel like they do, who knows where it may lead. Sure, they'll be crackpots, there always are, but there may be some people that tap into that anger and are motivated to act in some constructive (and non-violent) way to change things they don't like or feel are unfair. The longer that OWS goes on, the greater the chance that someone out there decides that since they're not the only one that feels that way, maybe it's time they got off their ass and did something about it. But never underestimate the feeling that you're not alone in motivating people to act, it's not only comforting to those who are considering action, it's completely necessary.
Re: Occupy America Someone photocopied a McDonald's application and threw copies from the Chicago Board of Trade onto the occupiers. No reports yet on if any were filled out. Yes, there are a lot of shitty minimum wage jobs out there. But there are few countries out there that have the opportunity that the U S has. Trucking companies are always hiring and will pay for you to get your CDL. But again, it's not the best job. That's life and you have infinitely more potential here than under a Middle East dictatorship. So in summary, yes the income inequality is skewed heavily. But the 99 percent need to remember they're the top 4 percent in the world. They're in control of their destiny and seeing how unorganized thaey've been so far, perhaps this is the reason they're struggling financially? Blame the banks all you want for the crisis, but homeowners need to take at least a little blame for this.
Re: Occupy America This is what bothers me more than anything, and is the message right wing radio/fox news/etc has been pushing. The truth is that the protest isn't about "we want the fruits of your labor," it's about wanting an economic system that isn't rigged from the get go. It's not about bitching about the free market, it's about creating and enforcing the rules that allow a free market to function. It's not about complaining about income equality, it's about addressing historic income inequality that cannot exist naturally, but only artificially through market manipulation. As I said at the outset, it's about the capturing of profit without commensurate creation of value.
Re: Occupy America And this is what bothers me more than anything. Its going out and making it happen yourself and playing the game, not whining and crying that the rules arent fair. Believe or not, non-rich people can make it without a trust fund or inheritance. Some win, and some lose. How about instead of wasting time in some park in new york complaining about the "fat cats," these people spend all that time and energy learning a new marketable skill or trade they can eventually bank on? Its definitely easier to point the finger and blame others for why theyre losers, its a lot harder to realize its their own fault. A bunch of factory floor workers get laid off and the CEO gets a bonus? Tough shit, thats what you get for being an uneducated, unskilled laborer. That CEO? Hes probably got an MBA from a decent school and gets to go chill by his pool. Is it fair? Who cares? And these protesters are complaining about the so-called 1%? I cant fucking wait to become one of them.
Re: Occupy America I have an engineering degree from a well respected program. Do you really think I'm bitching because I don't have marketable skills? This "winners fuck the prom queen" mentality is the worst kind of internet posturing.
Re: Occupy America I see a few problems with this -The correlation of profit to value is a utopian pipe dream. The very fundamentals of our financial system (compounded interest for instance) is so embedded in our system that to remove old money would cause a financial collapse. -I agree financial controls need to be better regulated, but again, bankers weren't the only greedy ones here. Bankers aren't putting a gun to your head to take put that second mortgage or finance rims for your Neon. Americans have been living above their means for years, it's a systemic culture of debt. If we don't learn from this and restructure, not just bankers but consumers as well, we're doomed to repeat our mistakes.
Re: Occupy America Congrats on your engineering degree. No one was attacking you specifically. I know a worse one.
Re: Occupy America a) That's not what posturing means. b) I listen to talk radio. 96.9 in the Boston market. It's all they've been going on about for weeks. Strawman after strawman about how it's all just a bunch of lazy bums who want to take "your" money. Watch any of the coverage Fox News is giving to OWS, or read any of the conservative blogs. They're as predictable as you can possibly be on the issue. This isn't some conspiracy I have dreamt up.
Re: Occupy America Class warfare and bipartisanship bickering wasn't part of the thread. Why is it being brought up now? Leave that nonsense to the likes of Fox News and Michael Moore
Re: Occupy America Basically at the heart of the 1% issue is it seems that everyone was hit by the financial collapse, except it seems it was almost a zero-sum game and the folks in the money and banking business cleaned up. It's not that the US started to give the 1% more money, but that some echelon found a way to be exempt. They're the guys that were shorting your mortgage. Not sure how true or valid that theory is, but it does seem to be what people are complaining about, and has some logic behind it beyond "fuck the bankers they're all rich assholes who take my freedom and jobs I deserve better because..".
Re: Occupy America Couple things here. 1) I don't really have a problem with "old money." Yeah spoiled brats like Paris Hilton and the like give us all a gut punch to our inborn sense of fairness, but on the whole they're not really doing active damage. I consider ill mannered spawn to be a luxury purchase like any other. Gawdy and ostentatious? Sure, but fuck it, it's not my money. 2) I consider capital investment value creating, and I think any reasonable economist would agree with me. 3) The kind of thing I'm talking about is when banks take zero interest loans from the Fed and use them to buy treasury bonds. Or when banks do some clever machinations and suddenly they're profiting massively despite the industries they're investing losing money. Or when they use insider information to dump toxic assets on unsuspecting institutional investors in order to shore up their own bottom line. It's that kind of shit I'm talking about, the kind that sucks profit out of the pockets of others instead of taking a share of the profit of a legitimate value creating enterprise.
Re: Occupy America I agree wholeheartedly, and if OWS were focusing on changing that they'd be protesting the SEC or Congress.
Re: Occupy America One thing I can get on board with these protests is the student loan problem. Asking for loan forgiveness is retarded, especially since one big protest theme is about bailouts; which is what forgiving a student loan basically is (which I think someone may have mentioned). But Im definitely on board with the interest rates being too high. That has to be the biggest detriment to success for new grads, even if they do get a good job. Its insane that the government guarantees all student loans. What would incentive would the lending institutions have to lowering the interest rates? If theyre high and they dont end up getting paid, why would they care? Theyre guaranteed. Take away that factor and competition will push those rates down.
Re: Occupy America Hey, I'd be all for bailouts, if they were equally available to all who could use them. Private corporations got a bailout from the government, why shouldn't private citizens? In theory, and this might actually happen. However, considering the massive amount of collusion and shady shit that went on before the 2008 crisis, I have significant doubts that they'll actually intentionally hurt each others' profits by lowering interest rates when people are evidently still willing to pay the current rate.
Re: Occupy America Theoretically, the guarantee decreases the interest rate because the lender is at less risk from the loan. They still have to deal with late payments/collection but the risk of default is gone. But I do agree that rates are way too high, especially with something that has zero default risk and is basically the government lending money to students and then paying off other government debts with their interest payments. However, if the loans were no longer backstopped what would likely happen is that: interest rates would increase or the supply of student loans would decrease or some combination of the two. Neither one is necessarily a bad thing. If people could actually get out of student loans, just like any other loan, through bankruptcy then the market could figure out an appropriate rate for each student. For example: an engineering major at MIT would pay less than the liberal arts major at a state school. One simply is more likely to be able to pay their loan and should pay a lower interest rate. Also, less supply would mean that schools would have to constrain tuition increases or provide more private loans/help for their students.
Re: Occupy America University level schools have truly become businesses. I'm wondering if banks will be issuing fewer loans to students than they have in the recent past, and if so, what is going to happen to these schools.
Re: Occupy America Like any other industry they'll have to lower prices, colleges will have to be about education again instead of four year drunken resorts.
Re: Occupy America I kinda doubt that they will lower prices. If anything, I think they will raise prices to make up the difference, thereby ensuring that only the students with parents who can pay or who work their ass off in a job while in school will be able to make it. I know my school for example has a TON of building projects going on right now. Alabama cut funding by a LOT the last couple years, somewhere in the ballpark of 17 million to the school I believe. Tuition just went up by more than 37% over the last 3 years.
Re: Occupy America Colleges in America are the next boom to bust. Just like Housing, the government pushing loans to everyone hasn't increased the value of the education, but have increased the supply of college students. And because the supply of college students has gone up astronomically, and their tuition is basically fully backed, the colleges have raised the cost of educations. Way, way, way past the actual value of the education. Soon it will bust, just like every other industry that the government has messed with. Kids and Parents will realize that 30-100 thousand in debt for a non-technical degree isn't worth it. Especially in a bad economy. The costs of College will crash, as will the businesses dedicated to offering College Loans. It won't be pretty, but people need to learn the lesson of what happens when government messes with the laws of supply and demand.
Re: Occupy America The fucking crazy thing is that most universities actually undercharge compared to costs, and cover the rest via fundraising, gifts, grants, and endowment investment. When $50,000 a year isn't enough (well, less when you take into account scholarships, but you get the idea), that is one fucked up cost structure.