Actually my trophies are from regional math competitions, and they're for winning, because math don't play that shit. The numbers is the numbers ya'll.
QAY I'm going to attempt to completely disagree with you in a productive way. Just for a few minutes, suspend the way you think we "get shit done." Because what's happening here, whether the mob will admit it or not, is NOT about "getting shit done," not in the sense you mean it. There's simply too much to do, the system has gone too far awry to try to cherry pick a thing or two and try to right the entire ship by pulling on a couple of oars. What we're seeing is decades of apathy and sedation, stirring and hopefully even waking up to the things Aetius was trying to describe. It's people realizing they've been playing and losing a completely rigged game, and they're rightfully pissed off. This is about education, it's about opening dialog and letting people know that it's time to stand up and count yourself among the angry. And there's an entire power structure in place with military weapons and millions of idiots like Carolla shouting against their own self interest to keep anything concrete from happening (let's come back to this, this is important). The idea is to create numbers, to swell the mob. If each congressman is for sale to the highest bidder, he or she will act in favor of those rigging the game, and there's only one thing that can stop that - numbers. JP Morgan once said that he had no patience to trifle with men whose power is gained by election, because that wasn't true power. He was right, but that can be used to the advantage of the public, if they're willing to stop bickering over bullshit and stand together against REAL corruption, rather than nickel and dime each other to death over the pittance left on the floor. Romney is a good example of where I'm headed, because he's not clever enough to hide his disingenuous actions. We've all seen his turnarounds on various issues as he attempts to embrace a more conservative party. He'll stand behind whatever he thinks will get him elected, because that's how you get in on the game - ain't nobody going to give you anything if you can't get elected. But if there's a mob of enough size telling you they're watching, and that if you vote in favor of tax breaks for the top 1%, or if you appoint Goldman Sachs executives to correct the very problem they invented (see how non partisan I am?!?), or if you allow the Fed to invent 7.7 TRILLION dollars out of thin air and give it to the banks at .01% interest and LITERALLY buy it back at 97 cents on the dollar while allowing those same banks to illegally foreclose on mortgages designed to fail, and you pass legislation allowing Monsanto to continue to eliminate any possibility of most of us acquiring even vaguely nutritious food, or allowing insurance executives to make medical decisions for us, we will stand up together and say, "Fuck you, that's unacceptable," and vote you out, and continue to vote more of you out until you knock it the fuck off. Short of violent revolution, no protest movement is capable of overturning the entire government and the structure surrounding it. And with our city police forces being equipped to go to war with Canada and win (that was for you, Netty), that simply isn't going to happen. So what can happen? If enough people speak up, politicians MUST listen. That part of the system is still in place. All OWS truly has to accomplish is to get loud enough to send the message - the entire country is pissed off about the bullshit and the backroom shenanigans and the boldness of the thievery. We assume a certain amount of corruption and we accept it, but this has gotten WAY the fuck out of hand, we're aware of it, and we expect it to stop. But the numbers have to exist. And this nonsense of "well, there are hippies, and I hate hippies," or "I work 80 hours a week and I'm exhausted and deep in debt, fuck you get a job," (duh - ever think maybe you shouldn't HAVE to work that much just to stay afloat above your debt?), and whatever other distracted bickering is going to keep us from ever sending that message. This isn't about socialism, or about entitlement, or about any other midlevel bullshit we're all fighting over. This is fewer than a couple thousand people robbing you fucking blind. Yes, you. There's not one single person on this board (there's a possibility that one or two exist here, but I really fucking doubt it) who shouldn't be with this, who shouldn't be able to look at the insane levels of corruption and say, "Yeah. Fuck that, I'm angry. I'll stand up too, sure, count me in." Anyone who isn't a multimillionaire is otherwise arguing against their own self interest - over nonsense, smoke and mirrors I hate gays and abortion shouldn't be legal and you hippies need to take a bath and get a job and I work hard for my 100 grand you can too. If you are not terribly, terribly rich and totally willing to let millions of people die miserable deaths after having miserable lives in order to make you richer, you are arguing against your own self interest. And that includes Adam Corolla, who is a (often funny and generally pretty fucking smart) loudmouthed douchebag who has completely missed the point in favor of shouting, "you hippies get off my lawn!"
I see what you're saying, but I tend to think that what is happening is that the OWS "movement" is facilitating the getting done of shit, but not actually doing that shit itself. In and of itself, it's causing unrest, people to take notice of "something", making powerful people uncomfortable, and opening them up to the possibility of change. They aren't making the change, just making it possible. I see that as being different. Subtly, but still different.
Sure... they HAD an issue. What, exactly is the issue that OWS has, other than a 1% vs. 99%? They aren't bringing anything remotely tangible to the table, only that "it's broken"... whatever "it" is. More than anything it is showing that people aren't content with what's going on, and Carolla's rant can speak to at least a part of it.
<a class="postlink" href="http://occupywallst.org/about/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://occupywallst.org/about/</a> "#ows is fighting back against the corrosive power of major banks and multinational corporations over the democratic process, and the role of Wall Street in creating an economic collapse that has caused the greatest recession in generations."
I swear I don't mean this in an insulting or disrespectful way, but it blows my fucking mind that you can ask that question. Corruption. Illegal practices. Theft. Murder. Deceit. Disregard and contempt. Treason. Where is the disconnect? How can we have a discussion for 50 pages and at the end you can still say, "I don't get it. What are they upset about?"
Off the top of my head: -The Justice Department effectively abandoning any effort to prosecute crimes that led to the 2008 collapse. -The SEC practice of allowing settlements with financial firms for less than the damage they caused, and without admitting wrongdoing -Insider trading by members of congress -Employment conditions that treat average workers as at-will, and executives as paid-obscene-amounts-even-if-they-destroy-the-company -Income tax rates that are nearly double long term capital gains tax rates And so on.
Because that's not a movement, that's a hodgepodge of loosely defined complaints. If you ask any two protesters, theyll tell you something completely different. I guess one benefit of them is anytime you address one of the issues, the supporter will most likely say "No no no. It's not about issue A, it's about issue B."That's one way to avoid a constructive discussion I guess. It's been almost 3 months. Maybe it's time to get your shit together instead of taunting and whining about the cops. If the so-called redneck from the Tea Party can do it, then what's the excuse?
I forgot a really good one: Banks using effectively zero interest loans from the Fed's "discount window" to buy treasury bonds.
So I take it, then, that you completely disagree with my previous post? Here's what troubles me: Vitriol from people who feel wronged and/or are claiming to be fighting corruption or a system in which they have suffered, I can understand. You claim to not be one of "them." You are clearly not a CEO of AIG or Goldman Sachs. So what the fuck are you so angry about? Why are you so determined to put down a group of people who, regardless of which "different complaint" you think they're talking about, are trying to find a way to better YOUR life?
Because to embrace the possibility that these protestors are at least partially correct destroys the illusion that many normal, workaday people foster about the fairness of a system they're heavily invested in. It isn't that he's a multimillionaire C-level executive of a major finance firm or insurance company, it's that he's been told his entire life that in America, anyone can be, and that the people who are at that level deserve to be through the merit of their actions. There are enough holes in the arguments posed by OWS to justify complete dismissal in the minds of anyone who would prefer not to believe that the game is fixed, and that it was made that way long before they had any say in the matter. You're surprised that people don't want to give in to the idea that the Fair Shake, a fundamental principle of the American Dream, is a bold-faced lie? It shocks you that people don't want to think they're pawns?
I'm not angry at all, but this is a discussion board after all. My life is being made better how exactly? Because tax money is being wasted because municipal governments have to deal with it? We got it, sometimes things are unfair. Theres been a lot of complaining and zero solutions proposed. And I'm tired of being told I'm represented by them via the 99% vs 1% comparison, what arrogance. Some people can pretend they're helpless and victimized and want a helping hand. The rest of us will get our shit together and happily enjoy the fruits of that labor.
I agree with your Rep, SUAPYG, that they will facilitate change. But without a plan, or objectives, others that are wise in the way of politics and making change, will take advantage and use this for change, and I doubt very much it'll be change the way people want it. None of the stuff you guys mentioned wasn't known before OWS. None of the stuff you guys have mentioned is an issue brought forward by OWS. That's why I asked... OWS is a physical manifestation of a metaphysical concept; we want things to be better. Mobs and protesting work when you have a goal, and a way to say "this is what we want, and we won't stop until it's been done". Until they have focus like that, it's just a flash-mob that might as well be hacky sacking in the park. OWS has arguably reached it's high point. What changes are there? Right... your fucking Congress has classified Pizza a vegetable. Look, I agree that the basic premis of "let's make the world a better place" is a good one, and should be highly promoted (along with "don't be a dick"), but the occupy movement isn't going to accomplish anything of worth, in my opinion. You want shit to change? Get into politics, and lead the change... don't pitch a tent in a field and bitch about lack of porta-potties from the man. $0.02
Re: QAY I agree with what you're saying, but for all of you that are optimistic we're going to see results, and that these people are actually capable of fixing corruption, the wealth gap, opportunistic loans,unfair lobbying, etc. I have to ask, have you guys considered that America is not actually behind this? Based on the polls I'm seeing OWS only maintains a 30% approval rating. That's not enough to push Washington to implement changes on such polarizing issues, especially in the lack of cogent solutions. The disapproval rating is 40% so yes, the majority of America wants them to shut up and go home. Approximately 30% say they are too uninformed to have an opinion. To me that's even more disconcerting than if the disapproval rating were higher. Most Americans are either tired of protests, or they've become emotionally withdrawn and have no stake in the issues. Like Nettdata pointed out, you can't accomplish anything with peaceful camp outs where permits allow. All the stammering and anger just gets lost in the noise. They really only have two options; get political, or get violent, and they're doing neither.
You'll also notice that a lot of it has been focused on the front-line battles between the cops and the protestors, and such. Kind of a simple way to take focus off of the real issues, eh? Wag the Dog in real life. Next thing you know, OWS will have a song themselves... Oh... wait...
Re: QAY I'm not going to argue too hard about these points, because I don't entirely disagree - it's struggling for many of the reasons pointed out here and by NettData earlier. My point is only that YOU, you Kampf Trinker and you IWSJ, and you Nett Daddy, you can and should stop distancing yourselves from the basic part of this that you quoted in your post, KT. If you pretend it has nothing to do with you, then boom - 30% approval rating. If you say, "well, I don't like how they're going about it, but yeah - I'm pissed off, too." Boom. 40% approval rating.