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The Association: 2012-2013

Discussion in 'Sports Board' started by Trakiel, Oct 17, 2012.

  1. Parker

    Parker
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    For those who actually want to have an intelligent conversation about the Evolution of LeBron James and why he is better than he was in Cleveland. <a class="postlink" href="http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9109245/how-lebron-james-transformed-game-become-highly-efficient-scoring-machine" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/910 ... ng-machine</a>. If you REALLY hate LeBron James, the first 3 paragraphs deepthroat him and tickle his anus so don't read them. I read that article and it actually pretty interesting, shot charts have made discussions about basketball much more intelligent. You can't read this article and not respect the actual mechanics of his game even more. He's still a bitch doe.
     
  2. FreeCorps

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    Not to sound like a grumpy old man, but I would've loved to see LeBron and Kobe play in the NBA during the 90's. A big reason that, for me, Jordan will be forever the GOAT is remembering him driving baseline or down the lane against teams like the Pistons and the Knicks, getting the absolute crap mauled out of him by guys like Mahorn, Laimbeer, Oakley, Mason, et al, and still getting the And 1. Not that LeBron couldn't still get his shot off, the man is a physical freak, but it would've been interesting. If he thinks he's getting hit now, imagine Oak getting in his face.
     
  3. MoreCowbell

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    Counter-argument: Some of those guys are too unskilled, out-of-shape, and uncoordinated to play today, and there is a good chance that many modern players would either out-muscle them or out-maneuver them with greater ease.

    A lot of guys in the 1980s and 1990s were stiffs without a lifetime of intensive training and coaching.

    I readthis article by the same guy as Parker's one and like most articles by the author, was one of my most interesting recent reads.
     
  4. FreeCorps

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    Counter-counter-argument: True. Let's look at it another way then, We all know athletes are becoming bigger, faster and stronger. I'm talking about how much players were allowed to get away with. Kobe would lose his damn mind with the old school hand checking rules, and players had more freedom to bash those who had the audacity to get in the lane. And I'd argue that the Davis brothers (Pacers) could've played today. Having an athletic enforcer with the athletic ability of, say, Dwight Howard with the mindset of Charles Oakley would be devastating. Of course, this leads into another grumpy old man point. That these guys are too friendly with each other nowadays. But that's another point all-together.
     
  5. Parker

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    Well they're "friendliness" could be a chicken/egg dynamic as well. Its easy to hold a grudge when someone can knock your dick off in the middle of a layup and only get a foul. Now that they can't be old school and hit people like they used to without getting thrown out the game, not too hard to be friends.

    I am loving the shot chart and SportsVU data. Not to get sabermetrics but it is going to make basketball defenses get super interesting.
     
  6. MoreCowbell

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    The problem with this whole idea is it assumes that, in such a scenario, Kobe would continue to keep playing like Kobe. Or vice versa, that Oak would keep thugging were he playing in 2013. In reality, both of them would change over any reasonable time horizon, and if you were just playing a single game, the advantage just goes to the house rules.
     
  7. Gator

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    The only way the Heat could have sent a bigger FUCK YOU to the Spurs and San Antonio was to win the game.

    Oh wait....
     
  8. Parker

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    So the one thing I noticed during the Bulls game, was that during Chris Bosh's 3s, no one was flinching. Its like they're okay with him taking that shot, or even encouraging him to take it, which is really fucking interesting. He was 1/4 or 1/5 in for on Wednesday. I think he was 3/5 last night. That's pretty ballsy of Spoelstra to let that fly. Scary thing it is paying off.

    Pop has to be very upset at that game. That was his game to light The Heat on fire (see what I did there?) but he didn't. And now when you think about it, the Bulls are the sole reason the Heat didn't get to history. Excellent.
     
  9. MoreCowbell

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    I don't know how many he has to hit before it becomes a plus possession (presumably there is some inherent value in him shooting them as a stretch 5), but he's current a 28.4% shooter on about 1 a game. Not great, but certainly could be worse. It's actually better than Wade from 3, and within spitting distance of Norris Cole's 32.5%.
     
  10. Nom Chompsky

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    28.4 is pretty bad. That's like Josh Smith level. That's .852 points per possession on those that end in a Bosh 3, so unless the alternative is a shot clock violation, it's not really worth him shooting those shots.

    It varies based on the team/situation etc, but you really want to start getting in the 35% range for it to be a useful part of your game. San Antonio is probably better off letting Bosh shoot as many threes as he likes, and I bet Pop knows it.
     
  11. Parker

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    But like I said, and if you watched closely on Wednesday and Sunday. No one on the floor or bench was doing the Josh Smith "OH NO WHY IS HE SHOOTING THAT?!?!" Neither is Spoelstra. I think even the team is trying to get him to do it. And it is at the same spot every fucking time, right at the top of the arc.
     
  12. Nom Chompsky

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    I'd have to look at the area-specific breakdown -- there's a decent chance that one of two things is happening:

    1.) Chris shoots from that particular area at a +EV rate, and they're happy because it's a good shot.

    2.) Chris shoots that shot well in practice and his coach/teammates have grown to trust him.


    If it's #2, I'm going to have to see it in games before I sign off for it. It's silly to trust in stuff like, "how encouraging his teammates look" when the data is so abundantly available and granular. Unless you get paid big bucks to be folksy and smug...

    Ha! Found it.

    <a class="postlink" href="http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=2547" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=2547</a>

    Looks like it might be that particular shot -- small sample size, but in that sample he's been worthwhile from that show but not anywhere else. Tiny sample size, but there it is.
     
  13. Parker

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    Haha, well there we go. Not saying I trust "how encouraging his teammates look" its more like I found it odd his teammates weren't reaching like Shaq or Rodman shooting a 3. They reacted the same way when Shane Battier shoots a 3 and it was at the same spot. Huge difference between the two. NOW I'm smug because I saw something, and I was right.
     
  14. Nom Chompsky

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    Fwiw, Battier's been money from that spot in limited opportunities.

    <a class="postlink" href="http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=2203" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=2203</a>


    Also, players are often irrational and too close to observe with as much accuracy. Not saying to discount it entirely, just that I'd rather trust people who have no stake in the success of a particular action to be more objective.
     
  15. MoreCowbell

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    I'm not actually making the argument that Bosh should shoot it. He probably shouldn't.

    BUT. A pure percentages argument is overly simplistic. There's a reason why seven footers who shoot threes are talked about differently than point guards who do so: because the defensive effect is different. It's entirely possible that there is a value added by the mere possibility that Bosh might take the shot. It clears out an interior defender.

    For an example by way of the opposite, watch how defenses play Rajon Rondo. His inability to shoot the 3 (and this was even more true in the past) is harmful for other parts of the offense, because of how it lets defenses set up. "Lets not even bother sending the point guard beyond the free throw line, that way we have an extra body."

    That being said, there is a negative value of having your center that far from the rim, due to the "Kobe assist" effect (which suggests that the likelihood of an offensive rebound is an important variable in evaluating a shot).
     
  16. Nom Chompsky

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    Right, but those only SHOULD be important if the 7-footer can shoot open threes at a level that necessitates paying attention to him (a somewhat goofy German in Dallas comes to mind...). If Chris Bosh is going to shoot that shot at that percentage, a good defensive coach would be happy to let him take it to his little heart's content. That's mildly situation dependent, but letting bad shooters shoot low percentage shots is a pretty good strategy, especially when the other options are LeBron, Wade, and Battier/Allen spotting up.

    Kevin Love's three point shooting is valuable. Bosh's, unless it improves, probably isn't.
     
  17. MoreCowbell

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    Yes, I agree. But to a certain degree, if that's something Bosh and the coach want to add to his game, they can't really develop it unless he can shoot it. It's the kinda thing where a little bit of practice and game-time opportunities might change a lot: see Byron Mullens, Derrick Williams, or Kevin Love.

    There's also the fact that he's shooting 36% from three in the month of March (9 for 25).

    Maybe, from the Heat's perspective, the entire season is effectively practice, so why not see what you can do?

    Also, Kevin Love is shooting 21.5% from three this season, but it's admittedly well below his career mark.
     
  18. Trakiel

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    Call me Caitlyn. Got any cake?

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    Hey Parker, you better tell your boys to learn their place and stop breaking the streaks of better teams, if they know what's good for them.
     
  19. Parker

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    "Hello Amazon...was wondering if you had any fucks in stock because we're all out here in Chicago. Yeah, we ran out of fucks long ago. We simply have no fucks to give. Really? You're fresh out. Well looks like we won't be giving any fucks either. Alrighty, bye bye."[​IMG]

    I can't find a picture but Benny the Bull has a sign he carries around while wearing a trench coat that says "No Streaking Allowed." We mean that shit.
     
  20. Nom Chompsky

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    Steph Curry has been a monster (...offensively) this season.

    [​IMG]