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The Association 2012

Discussion in 'Sports Board' started by Parker, Dec 25, 2011.

  1. dieformetal

    dieformetal
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    Hurricanes Are My Bitch

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    The logo's definitely an improvement, but if they can't trade for Howard over the summer(extremely unlikely), then they're not re-signing Deron or Wallace...so they're pretty much guaranteed to suck. Kind of like the Knicks, only the Nets actually have an excuse for playing like garbage(no talent being signed).
     
  2. dieformetal

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    Will someone PLEASE tell me what my Beloved Bulls have done to anger the basketball gods so? They work hard, they don't talk shit, and I defy anyone to name a championship-caliber team with a smaller collective ego. Now Noah's injured too...godDAMNit...
     
  3. Parker

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    I will watch this game holding a teddy bear and telling it "It'll be alright, I'll be alright..."

    Then hop on Lakers Bandwagon, knowing OKC is going to the Finals. You watch them play sometimes and you just think "How the fuck did they lose a game?"
     
  4. KIMaster

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    Looks like we're headed for a Spurs-Thunder final in the West to decide who takes on Miami. San Antonio and OKC are playing on a different level right now, while the Heat have no real challengers in the East. (Indiana, of all teams, seems like the best challenger remaining) The latter fact is unfortunate.

    On the lighter side of things, a crazed female fan ran onto the court during the Nuggets-Lakers game today;



    The woman was known to have stalked Kenyon Martin and came onto the court screaming "Where's Kenyon?! Where's Kenyon?!" Unfortunately, she failed at stalking as well as life, since Martin presently plays for the Los Angeles Clippers. Wrong playoff game, crackhead.
     
    #364 KIMaster, May 7, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2015
  5. Parker

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    We're up to 2 sweeps right now. Blake Griffin also played a monster game. Its funny how there is a little Blake Griffin backlash but we keep forgetting its his second year in the league.
     
  6. MoreCowbell

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    KIMaster, I have a question for you as the resident Jazz fan.

    I hear a lot of excitement about how young the Jazz are and their abundance of talent that could be developed. Sure, this is true. But when I look at the roster, I see a massive logjam at the 4/5. They have a PG that everyone seems to think they should get rid of, and less talent at the wing (Hayward is OK, but low ceiling). What is the Jazz's plan here?

    Kanter and Favors (and to a lesser degree Carroll, who I doubt figures into their long term plans) seem to need minutes, but will struggle to get them in the presence of Millsap and Jefferson. Sure, it's fine now when both those guys are green, but once they're in their third year or so, how does Utah plan to get everyone on the court? Am I underrating the degree to which Burks figures into Jazz optimism?
     
  7. dieformetal

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    An interesting article on the Spurs...


    <a class="postlink" href="http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2012/5/8/3006352/spurs-vs-jazz-nba-playoffs-2012" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2012/5/8/30 ... yoffs-2012</a>


    As for me, I've reverted back to THE-HEAT-MUST-DIE-AT-ALL-COSTS mode...so I don't really care anymore about any Eastern Conference games(except for the Bulls one tonight, which I'm only watching because as a fan I feel I must be there when the ship is going down...much like the last regular season game of the Cowboys for the last 2-3 years). It's clearly going to be either Thunder/Lakers/Spurs in the finals, I just think San Antonio's age is going to catch up with them at some point.
     
  8. MoreCowbell

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    I'm not sure that the author of that article knows what "favorite" means. Or "clearly."

    I mean, I like the Spurs, but that is a bit of an overstatement.
     
  9. dieformetal

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    To paraphrase Tucker Max, if it's going to be a Lakers-Heat Finals(which the Las Vegas oddsmakers were saying right after last year's Finals), then I'm rooting for the terrorists.
     
  10. Parker

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    Come on really? Lakers-Heat Finals, hate who you want to hate, but this is going to be some epic fucking basketball. We're talking about the battle for Jordan's legacy in these finals. We're going to get what Nike promised us before LeBron infamously shit the bed and vanished a few years back. We're going to see the Kobe Face! The only thing that could make this better is Phil Jackson coaching with Joey Crawford officiating (with the latter still possible)!

    This would be a Finals you'll be able to tell your children about and say "I watched it, I was there, it was great."

    And I say all of this knowing that OKC is definitely going to be in the finals.
     
  11. MoreCowbell

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    That's ultimately why I can't get too much Heat bile in my soul. They're just so fucking good. Watching LeBron and Wade play is just fantastic as a basketball fan, and if seeing greatness requires a Heat championship, so be it.

    That, and I'll never have to hear "LeBron has no titles" again. It's just boring/repetitive at this point.
     
  12. Jimmy James

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    I'm going to attempt to swallow my own tongue when that happens.

    Edit: Only if they win a title.
     
  13. dieformetal

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    I know, I know, it's just the thought of either Lebron getting a title, or Kobe winning another one(he is NOT Jordan) makes me want to go on a shooting spree. I do believe that the Thunder have the best chance at the Finals, though.
     
  14. Nom Chompsky

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    God I love LeBron.

    The Decision was ridiculous and stupid. There's no getting around that.

    But to me, he's everything I want out of a superstar athlete. Personable. Intelligent. A willing passer and defender. Capable of highlights at any time, but has learned to dial it down sometimes. Willing to defer in crunch time. It's fun to hate on him, and I won't begrudge anybody that enjoyment, but for me personally, I love the dude's game.

    He should be the runaway favorite for MVP, and anybody that's downplaying his season is doing it out of ignorance or contrarianism. He's doing everything there is to do on the court right now.

    I hope he wins his title, and once the Knicks are eliminated, I will be openly rooting for it.
     
  15. Parker

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    WHOA! Let's not get out of pocket. I want to see LeBron James give us his best godlike performance, everything he has as a man and athlete...and lose. I just got tumescent thinking about it.
     
  16. KIMaster

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    Correct. Either Millsap, Kanter, Favors, or Jefferson is getting traded.

    Personally, I would rather it be Millsap (an overrated defender) or Kanter, excellent though they are/will be, since I absolutely love both Favors and Jefferson. Favors has a legitimate chance of being a superstar, perennial All-Star big man, and Big Al is the heart and soul of the team, clawing and scratching like hell to win every game. That, and he has one of the most technically sound, proficient post games I have ever seen. It's no wonder he was a protege of Kevin McHale.

    Why do you think that Hayward has a low ceiling? He just finished his 2nd season in the league and is a whopping 22 years old. He is already a decent starter with averages of 12 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 3 apg, and 0.8 spg on almost 46% shooting from the field.

    You really don't think he is going to improve substantially in the next 3 years like virtually every other player in the league does?

    Look, I thought that selecting Hayward 9th overall in the 2010 lottery was a mistake, but he has proven me and many other doubters (including most Jazz fans, who booed his selection at a draft party at Energy Solutions Arena) wrong. He is shockingly quick and athletic (I know a skinny white guy who looks like he's 16 being athletic is counter-intuitive, but there it is), a good passer, and an okay shooter.

    With one of those bigs being traded and the Jazz having $8 million in cap space, they are one good move away from getting an All-Star caliber guard.

    Burks is part of it, certainly. I don't know whether he will ever be a major star, but if you watched him play this year, he is someone that can constantly get to the rim and free throw line.

    If the Jazz stand pat, then the natural improvement of Burks, Hawyard, Kanter, and Favors alone will make them a significantly better team next year. And if they make a good trade with one of their "Big Four" and/or sign a quality free agent who works out? Who knows...

    I like LeBron too, and wouldn't mind him winning a championship.

    But isn't Kevin Durant everything you just described and then some, minus the whole self-entitlement and being an out-of-touch douchebag bit?
     
  17. Nom Chompsky

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    Add me to the list of people surprised at how good Hayward has been athletically.

    Re: Durant

    I really like Durant's game, and think he might be the most talented scorer I've seen since I started watching basketball (and that includes Jordan). Seems like a nice guy, too, and made a cameo on a Wale mixtape, no complaints there. He also has a much more similar body type to me than Lebron does, so I feel like I can actually watch him and steal little moves or finishes from him.

    I think I like Lebron's personality a bit more (seems more interesting and lively), and Lebron is a much better defender and passer (and thus player).

    I guess my point is that while I'm rooting for LeBron (partially because he's been around longer and gets an undue amount of shit), I would be happy to see Durant win and wish KD nothing but the best in his career.
     
  18. MoreCowbell

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    I don't think Hayward is bad by any means. I see him as a good but not great starter, which is essentially where he is. Granted, I say that without having seen a ton of Jazz games first-hand.

    Pros: He's very long for the 2, athletic, he's a decent passer (and got a lot better in his second season). Tends to have good shot selection and make the shots you'd expect.
    Cons: He is a poor defender with a skinny build who doesn't rebound well (but he's surrounded by guys who rebound at a very high rate, so maybe that's partially circumstance), and he is a below average three point shooter. He was even below average beyond the arc in college (under 30% his sophomore year)

    The last one is pretty important for the Jazz, since they're going to have a ton of big bodies and could use a reliable kick out option. Hayward, Miles, and Harris certainly aren't providing that. I just don't see a ton of areas where he's going to be a significantly above average starting 2 unless his shooting dramatically improves, and that doesn't seem especially likely given his track record.

    He's certainly shown that the Korver comparison undersold his athleticism, but it also dramatically oversold his stroke.

    The counterargument being that Millsap is the only one of them who can play the 3, and the Jazz seem to do well with big lineups.

    Like nom said, what's remarkable about LeBron is that he does practically everything at an elite level, the exception being perimeter shooting. Durant does a few things very well and others at a more average level. Which isn't a knock on him at all, but more a statement about what amazes me re: LeBron.
     
  19. KIMaster

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    It's quite clear by these statements that you have seen very little of Hayward's play this season. He's more than a "decent passer"; he is very good, especially for a SG/SF. How many guys playing either of those positions average over 3 apg in just 30 mpg? Hayward is especially adept at finding an open man inside and passing out of double teams. He has made some absolutely gorgeous assists this year.

    As for his rebounding, it's fine. The Jazz were the 3rd best team during the regular season in total rebounds; 3.5 rpg for a perimeter player is normal, and not something they need more of from that position. If you watched him, he did a capable job on that account. Nothing special; just an average rebounding perimeter player.

    As for his 3 point shooting, what do his numbers as a sophomore in college have to do with anything? This past year, he averaged 35% behind the three point line, which is respectable. It's hardly "below average", considering the league average is like 32%. I don't know whether he will ever develop into a major threat behind the arc, but the possibility exists given his age and work ethic. Also, he is being specifically coached by one Jeff Hornaceck.

    Maybe he does and maybe he doesn't, but on what basis is how ceiling low?

    Amusingly enough, something that you listed as a "pro" I would list as something Hayward needs to improve upon. His shot selection and ability to "make the shots he is supposed to" is often inconsistent and unreliable.

    His "track record"? Dude, he is a 22 year-old with 2 full years in the NBA, shooting a very high 38.6% from 3-pt territory in his young pro career, on a moderate number of attempts. He has a lot of opportunity to improve. (Again, I can't predict the future and foretell whether he will in fact do so, but he is a very young player who is already a decent starter)

    No, Miles and Harris are not reliable 3-pt shooters, but comparing Hayward to either of those guys (multi-year veterans who are not improving their games) is silly.

    Who made such an idiotic comparison? It's obvious they never saw both Korver and Hayward play. Rather, they went "ooh! Long-haired, skinny-looking white guys playing SG/SF! Clearly, they must be the same player!"

    In terms of game, comparing Korver and Hayward is like comparing Kevin Garnett to Kevin Durant because they're both long, skinny black guys playing forward whose first names are the same.

    But who do you give up, then? There are as many, if not more counter-arguments against trading Kanter, Jefferson, and especially Favors.

    They're both incredibly well-rounded players who can each do a bunch of things no one else in the world can. Can LeBron do more things effectively? Possibly. But is that really the basis on which someone likes a player or considers him great? LeBron is more well-rounded than Jordan, too. Guys like Kareem and especially Bill Russell were way more one-dimensional than most superstars. So what?
     
  20. MoreCowbell

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    I ultimately defer to you b/c like I said, you've seen him play a lot more than I have. I'm merely going off what the numbers tell me. Also, you're making it out like I called him a bum. I said he's a pretty good starter but ultimately not likely a great one. Which is close to his current level of play, hence the low ceiling comment. I think it's low compared to his already respectable level of player, whereas someone like Favors has potential vastly exceeding his current level.

    But as for the basis for what I said...

    If you say he passes very well based on observation, I believe you. His assist rank is only a little better than average (#135 in the league), but that's obviously an unrefined/incomplete way to look at someone's passing ability.

    I said that because he's ranked #338 in the NBA in rebounding rate this year. But yes, I suspect he'd be higher elsewhere given how many rebounds the PFs and Cs in Utah eat up. At least one would hope so.

    It's respectable but it is in fact below average. It ranks him 35th amongst shooting guards this year with 44+ made attempts this year, and between 50th and 60th if you look at the broader category of wings.

    Haywood shot 34.6%; NBA average was 34.8% and for the last ten years or so, league average has hovered right around 35%. Maybe he gets better; he did, after all, shoot absurdly well in his rookie year and he shoots free throws reasonably well. I'm just saying the evidence points towards it being an area where he needs to improve his game if the Jazz are going to become serious contenders. They need him to space the floor.

    The answer is "practically every major analyst covering the 2010 NBA Draft." I mention not because of merit, but because it was what was actually being said at the time.

    I agree, it was a really stupid comparison made on little besides size and melanin levels. This is one of my long standing complaints about draft coverage. The NBA-player-comparison analysis tends to go to these ridiculous stereotypes (how often do you hear white players compared to black players or vice versa? And there's the classic "black players are raw and athletic, while white players hustle and are fundamentally sound" line)

    I'm not sure. I think it's a really hard question to answer at this point, and largely depends on how Favors and Kanter develop. If I were to bet, I'd say Kanter. He's got a lot of potential to be good, but seems to have the least unique contributions of any of them. Millsap provides flexibility, Favors is fantastic on defense, and Jefferson does a boatload of things well.

    If one player in particular can bring in an elite guard in exchange, though, that will change things.

    Well, why not? It's a fundamentally subjective question. "Why do you like one great player more than another great player?" has no "right" answers, within the limits of reasonableness.