The Idiot Board Readers Corner - General Discussion

Re: The Idiot Board Book Club

I understand that you may not feel so, but Jordan's death was unfortunate. It left a lot of fans hanging and in fear of whether the series they'd invested so much into would ever be completed. I'm one of those and I can speak for others as well.

You ended on what is widely regarded to be the poorest book in the series, so I don't blame you. On the same token, Knife of Dreams was released to much appreciation by critics and fans alike and what I've read of book 12 (I'm over a third of the way in) has been nothing short of fulfilling the great promise of the first few books.

My biggest complaint with The Lord of the Rings was that the books weren't longer. The Wheel of Time was just what I'd been looking for.

Spoil much? If I were midway through the series and hadn't come upon that part yet, I'd be livid to read this. But that's just me, I'm terrible when it comes to spoilers.

Can't argue with that, it makes perfect sense. I will say, though, that fans of this certain brand of epic fantasy find the 100 greatest book lists to be quite dry on that front...

Tolkien is the master. I refuse to rank him alongside contemporary fantasy writers. I haven't read Herbert, I think I will have to after you put him amongst such exalted company.

See, the thing is all those subplots are essential to the Last Battle, and this is an overarching theme for the series--every thread being integral to the Great Pattern. I challenge you to name one that completely fizzles out and serves no purpose whatsoever--you won't find it, because Jordan knew how each of the 1800+ characters would end up. I agree with you wholeheartedly, one one thing though--I can't say I enjoyed all of those subplots. But I do know fans who like the series way more than me who did, unbelievable as that may seem. While I didn't quite feel it to the extent you did, I know what you mean. Some parts get tedious. Luckily I stuck with it, and the payoff was way worth it in the end, for me. Where I am right now in the books, I'm hard-pressed to think of a character that I cannot stand, they've either been killed off or receive so little screen-time they only serve to heighten the excitement for the spicier bits.

Simply said, I agree. Jordan's romantic bits are his weakest efforts even though I respect all three of Rand's women, they've earned it. Jordan's relationships over the whole series seem unrealistic.

Actions? Character tics, I'll give you. Nynaeve is synonymous with braid-pulling. Arguably, plot lines have repetition because this is again a theme of the series--the Wheel of Time turns, and ages come and pass and come again. I find the politics to be excellent. Each nation is distinct from their neighbors in terms of their culture and beliefs--Jordan has done it beautifully. I also like the prophecy aspect of the books. Much better done than in other fantasy novels, because you are actually curious as to how exactly the seemingly-impossible prophecies will come to fruition.

I was willing, and I'm glad I did it as things stand. I won't lie, it was a struggle at times, but right now, I'm very glad I stuck it out. The ending looks to be fabulous, and it's finally within grasping distance. Brandon Sanderson is the perfect writer to carry on Jordan's legacy.

Lol. Like Brandon says, if you hate Nynaeve, it's because that's PRECISELY what Jordan intended when he wrote her that way. I'm sorry you found it bad enough that you had to stop reading, he must have done a way good job writing. For me it just became one of those quirks you have to bear with when you spend time doing something you enjoy. Speaking for myself, and for several others, Jordan's death was indeed a loss. Completely respectable if you don't feel the same way.

Thanks for those, I'll definitely look into them, especially the Hemingway one.

 

Re: The Idiot Board Book Club

I read The Road by Cormac McCarthy and Brave New World by Aldous Huxley this summer. Now, I am reading Blood Meridian by McCarthy. Started yesterday, and I'm about a third through.

If anyone knows of any excellent post-apocalyptic books (or films), that's been my thing lately, so please PM me with recommendations.

I want to start reading some Vonnegut as well. I also want to re-read the high school classics, now that I can appreciate them more, like The Things They Carried, Devil in the White City (which was excellent, seeing how I call Chicago my home), and the Great Gatsby. I might give Catcher in the Rye another shot, but I didn't see what the hype was all about the first time I read it.

Also, with 18 credit hours and 32 hours at work (and an unhealthy addiction to Borderlands), I find it hard to start reading a book, so if anyone can also recommend a quick read, or one of those I-Can't-Put-This-Shit-Down-Til-The-Finish books, I'll happily take those suggestions as well.

 

Re: The Idiot Board Book Club

Thanks for posting this. I've been hearing from some other people outside the board that have had similar problems with it. Basically they said it's great through book 3, and then just meanders through ridiculously overloaded details and meaningless subplots. I really liked the first book

Spoiler

(although Rand's rise to power was a bit abrubt at the end)

but I'm not going to invest in a 14 book series when I'm hearing this from the majority of people who tried to get through the series.

Other than Eye of the World I've been reading a bit of Stephen king.

On Writing is a very useful tool for aspiring authors. It sets virtually no absolutes for how to approach writing (a good thing) and takes a realistic approach towards 'writing what you know.' There's a great passage out of 1408 which takes you through the editing process; what details to cut, how to limit adverbs, which tid bits to add, considering details that should be revealed later rather than now, etc. There's also a number of writing exercises suggested, and a very detailed description for how Stephen King became the author he is today. It's kind of interesting how critics have shit all over King despite his success, but his book on how he approaches writing has been met mostly with praise. As far as I know, this is the only book of his commonly read in writing/literature classes.
I reread IT mainly for nostalgic purposes. IT is the ultimate monster story, and one of the most compelling and disturbing books I've ever read.

Spoiler

Between Patrick Hockstetter's sociopathic insanity and 6 eleven year old boys running a train on Beverly it's hard to get much more fucked up than this book.

Just as a warning, Blood Meridian is a very difficult read so I recommend you take your time with it and maybe even read some of the more difficult passages twice. Also, I would love to have a book club discussion for this book if enough people are in. I know a lot of members from the old board had read it and I can think of very few books that would be as interesting to talk about.

For post-apocalyptic books I'm not sure what you've read yet, but I'll suggest the The Stand by Stephen King. In short it's about a disease that wipes out 99% of humanity and two separete groups of survivors gather together to build new communities and engage in a seemingly spiritual war with each other. I had a few issues with it, but the book is highly entertaining.

For high school classics, I would try Perfume by Patrick Suskind if your school didn't do it. It's about a man born in France with an extraordinary sense of smell. He pursues the ultimate scent through a story of decadence, murder, and self-discovery. As the story progresses you begin to discover that the protagonist is more of a monster than a man with an unusual talent.

 

Re: The Idiot Board Book Club

The Next 100 Years: A Forecast for the 21st Century by George Friedman

This book changed my worldview. Fascinating and hugely enlightening. It helped me see the forest without getting bogged down by the trees, so to speak.

A few interesting points:

Spoiler

• The US war with Afghanistan and Iraq is nothing but a prevention of a strong Islamic coalition from forming. We are there simply to destabilize the region. Nothing more, nothing less. Although it has been sloppy and poorly executed at times, that doesn't matter. Even if we were to lose and be forced out of the region, it wouldn't matter. As much as I hated Bush, Friedman makes a strong case that the mission was indeed accomplished.
• The world is not, and will not be, overpopulated anytime soon. As a matter of fact, the rate of population increase is dropping in industrialized nations and leveling out in most mid-level countries.
• Social conservatism is a lost cause. The family structure has changed and society has (and will continue to) change with it.
• Although it feels like the wheels are flying off, the US will continue to be a global super power in the foreseeable future as long as it retains control of global oceanic shipping lanes and as long as it continues to prevent any other powerful foreign coalitions from forming.
• When the Baby Boomers retire and start drawing on social security, we will turn the tables on our immigration policy: We will go from deterring Mexican immigrants to actively and desperately recruiting them.
• There will be another cold war with Russia as they try to restore the original borders of the Soviet Union. But, geopolitically, they won't really have a leg to stand on.
• As income inequality continues to increase in China, it will fragment and/or close itself off from the world again until things equal out.
• Japan, if it feels economically encumbered by the US, may try to form a coalition to challenge the US and retake the Pacific.
• Turkey will become a world power and may be in a position to challenge the US at some point in the century, possibly with the help of a coalition with Japan.
• Mexico will be doing pretty well for itself in the next century, possibly to the point of challenging the US-Mex borderlands, but probably not.
• As we ween off of petroleum, we will turn to space-based energy as a cheap, relatively easy alternative. The US will be leading the way.
• Global climate change is at least partly a man made problem that has a solution and that will not be a long-standing issue.

As the author freely admits, he very well may be wrong about many of his predictions. But, his arguments make a lot of sense and his speculations are hard to ignore. You get the sense that even if the outcomes that Friedman predicts don't necessarily come to fruition, the causes will be accurate.

The book is worth a read just for a fresh and more broad outlook on world events.

Next up: The Ancestors Tale: A Pilgrimage to the Dawn of Evolution by Richard Dawkins. For me, it should be hugely entertaining. For most others, I imagine it will be like 4 Ambien, a joint and a bottle of merlot.

 

Re: The Idiot Board Book Club

I'm reading "Metamorphosis and other Short Stories" by Franz Kafka.

Wow. Of all the authors I have read, not even Ryonosuke Akutagawa (whose writings I love) has stories this unabashedly, completely insane. In each case, there is some current of normalcy in the set-up, explication, and plot, only for some completely demented developments to pop up out of nowhere and take over. There's not even a punchline in the standard form; frequently, the endings will just leave the reader scratching his head.

As a result, the collection is very much hit or miss; some writings totally miss their mark ("The Judgment", for example), while others, like Metamorphosis itself, are compelling, exciting reading.

 

Re: The Idiot Board Book Club

I just started Bill Bryson's A Short History of Nearly Everything and so far it has kept my attention. It's pretty much a science book, but it's written in a way that normal people can understand, mostly focusing on the how the today's world came to be and leading up to how life began and is possible. I'm only a couple chapters into the book but so far I would recommend it to anyone looking to expand their knowledge about various scientific matters and learn about some of the interesting people who have helped us gain the understanding we have of the world we live in. It can get a bit scientific at points but some of the stories about different scientists are worth it, I didn't know Newton was such a nut.

 

Re: The Idiot Board Book Club

What I find particularly interesting is that King, of all the mass-markety-type of writers I have read (e.g. Clancy, Crichton) seems to be the only one to engage with his critics' opinion of him in this way. Of course, this could simply be because King has written so many pieces about his own fictions in various introductions, Danse Macabre and On Writing, but he seems to me to be quite resentful of the academic-literary elitist response to his work rather than forgetting about it. Even when he discusses such things in On Writing I can almost sense an undercurrent of irritation that, despite making hundreds of millions of dollars and being respected by millions of fans, he has never really been warmly accepted into any list of American greats on the strength of his remarkable storytelling ability. I know he won the National Book Award a few years back but the furore that caused appears to have stung him a little, in reading some of his Entertainment Weekly columns and other writing.

 

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I just finished reading Everything Matters by Ron Currie, Jr. Same guy who wrote God is Dead. It was very, very good. An interesting mix of first person in several chapters from the viewpoint of various characters, and narrative in other chapters, as though being spoken to the lead character by an omniscient being.

Here's a snippet of a review I found.

 

Re: The Idiot Board Book Club

Yeah, that was strange. For me, it took a good chapter to finally get into the rhythm. Then, I'd read at my normal pace or close to it.

You sick masochistic fuck. That guy annoys me so bad I'd rather man a glory hole at a truckstop in Arkansas than listen to a 30 sec clip of him, much less read his book.

 

Re: The Idiot Board Book Club

I just picked up "The Road Less Traveled" by Scott Peck the title reads: A new psychology of Love, Traditional Values and Spiritual Growth. Old book, millions sold. All I can say, is if you ever wanted to know how NOT to fuck up a kid, or why you are fucked up, and how you can try to fix it, or how to do what every mod in the old Advice thread repeatedly suggested and take responsibility for your life and choices, this is a must read.

 

Re: The Idiot Board Book Club

I agree with the point you made about there being tons of sub-plots within the series. But I think you are missing the reason why. This is a series not based on a just a few main characters (although, more is written about them due to the effect they have on the world), but of the world itself that Jordan has created. Irked Salesman says it best...

You are right. I think Jordan is much better. I also think Herbert was better than Tolkien because Tolkien only offered the reader the perspective from "the good guys". I would have liked to have read the perspective of The Witch King of Angmar, and some more of his history. Jordon does this in his series; he offers all points of view (good and bad) which makes it way more in depth and interesting than Tolkien.The Lord of the Rings was excellent, but I felt it was too short.

I will have to disagree with the parts in bold. Rand doesn't feel justified because he maintains a special role, he completely loathes himself because he has fallen in love with 3 different women. But you realize that the Pattern ties him to these women not just for perversion, but for a purpose. But I do agree that the romantic aspects are lacking in regards to Rand, but I really enjoyed the ones pertaining to Mat & Perrin.
You know that Herbert wrote about polygamy also? Every single Freman in Dune practices polygamy (nothing against Herbet, I love his books. But I just wanted to point that out).

The 11th book, Knife of Dreams, was fantastic, and very fast paced. You can tell that the author is building up the climax of the series. I have finished the 12th book also, The Gathering Storm, and have come to regard that book as good if not better then the 1st book in this series. Brandon Sanderson has done an awesome job of filling Robert Jordan's shoes. My only complaint is that I will have to wait another year for the next book.

Note: These opinions are biased, including mine, and would I suggest reading the books to form your own opinion on the series. It may not be for everyone.

 

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Sorry to turn this away from the fascinating sci-fi discussion on the merits of Robert Jordan, really thrilling stuff guys, but I'd like to share my frustrations with my current read.

Karouac's On The Road. I'm about 130 pages into the Penguin Classic's version (right around 300 pages) and I stilll don't get why this is considered one of the greatest novels of all time. If this book is supposed to speak for the beat generation, than I'm glad I wasn't a part of it.

The book is aimless, and while aimless characters are NOT a bad thing (I recently read and loved The Sun Also Rises) I just can't get into this one. I guess I was expecting him to spend more time romanticizing his time on the road, but all he really does is describe it.

 

Re: The Idiot Board Book Club

I just finished The Apprenticeship of Duddy Kravitz by Mordecai Richler. This book is a classic in Canada, it's about a young Jewish kid who is constantly scheming and hustling to buy land, and his interactions along the way. If you've ever read any Philip Roth, you will enjoy this book. I highly recommend it.

 

Re: The Idiot Board Book Club

I'm reading "On the Road" by Jack Kerouac.

It definitely captures the heart and soul of the "Beat" generation of Americans- prior to Hippie Nation, but man, I can't stand any of the characters. I'm not qualified to critique writing style, but I will definitely say that I find Dean Moriarty and Sal so fucking annoying as human beings that I find myself glossing over entire passages of their jazz club exploits and monologues.

This could be an indication that I have become "the man" but it seriously bugs me how unproductive and listless these guys are. I am very impressed, and have some sort of fictional nostalgia for an America where going West means exploring the great unknown, and where hitch-hiking across the country was commonplace and not riddled with dangers of crime, but the way Dean shirks responsibility for the women and children in his life, and how Sal just goes along for the ride makes me want to scream.

I'm not finished yet, and am struggling getting through the last 50 or so pages, so if this thing develops a greater meaning towards the end, don't ruin it for me.

Last few items on my reading list:
Stoner - John Williams (favorite novel since reading "Fortunate Son" by Walter Mosely two year ago)
Gang Leader for a Day - Sudhir Venkatesh
Catcher in the Rye - J. D. Salinger
Outliers - Malcolm Gladwell

Coming next:
Fooled by Randomness - Nicholas Taleb

 

Re: The Idiot Board Book Club

manbehindthecurtain- If you didn't like "On the Road" I can almost guarantee you won't like "Catcher in the Rye"

On an unrelated not does anyone know what the hell is going on with Amazon? I've tried getting on their site through multiple browsers and it just shuffles me along to the Washington Post.

 

Re: The Idiot Board Book Club

Catcher in the Rye was on my "last few" ie "just finished" list. I actually enjoyed it a great deal more than I have "On the Road". I was intrigued by Caulfield's warped sense of self righteousness and morality. The underpinnings of his social pathology made sense to me, whereas with Dean Moriarty in "On the Road", I'm generally put off by the chaos in him.

 

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I've had a lot of luck lately in my reading choices. They've all been great and I recommend all of them. Starting with the earliest:

Lincoln's Melancholy: How depression challenged a president and fueled his greatness
I picked this up at the Lincoln Memorial about six weeks ago. Amazing book, it challenges a lot of the negative views people maintain about depression and introvert personalities, and actually goes so far as to argue that Lincoln didn't succeed in spite of his mental health, but through it. That his depression and "melancholy" (the term used in his time) wasn't a barrier to be overcome, but a character trait to be embraced. Really interesting insight and study, especially for anyone suffering from similar conditions.

Man's search for Meaning, by Victor Frankl
Again, another great book that argues man doesn't live to acquire power or seek pleasure, as asserted in the past, but to live with meaning. Frankl breaks the meaning down into three categories - by creating a work or doing a deed, by experiencing someone or something, and by the attitude we take towards unavoidable suffering. A true upper of a book and a great study of what the author coins "Logotherapy," which I think he came up with himself, back dropped by his own experiences suffering through a concentration camp.

Deep Survival: Who lives, Who dies, and Why, by Laurence Gonzales
What might be one of my top five favorite books to date, a fantastic study of what it means to survive. Gonzales composes this book through anecdotal stories of men and women braving the elements and how they came out alive (and why they didn't). His forward to the book breaks the whole thing down in one sentence ("As corny as it sounds, it's in the heart"), but in the end, it's not a book about survival - it is a book about living. It is a book for anyone yearning to live on a plane that beats the obstacle of an ever-changing world and other forces beyond our control. I'm probably speaking a little too grandiose here, but you will too after you finish this thing.

Sperm Wars: Infidelity, Sexual Conflict, and other bedroom battles, by Robin Baker
Been meaning to read this book since Tucker touted it on his reading list way back when, and he's right - this book completely knocked me on my ass. I think I needed a week or so to recover from the content in it, especially towards the end, but still, a peerless look at evolutionary biology and the unconscious forces that fuel human sexuality. The only beef I had with it was what I have with most evolutionists, that their study inevitably ignores any semblance of human morality (almost every scene in this book deals with predominately horrible, dishonest people under the guise of reproductive study), especially in the chapters concerning rape. It might not be for a mind like mine, but I definitely respect the author and the work of this book. I've just got one thing to say - be careful what you learn, because then that's what you know.

No Country for Old Men, by Cormac McCarthy
Not much to say on this one. I read The Road about a year ago and loved it, and I can't decide which is better. A profound story with a terse, enigmatic prose that follows the lives of its characters after one fatefully chances across a pickup truck containing $2.4 million and a slew of men shot to death. I don't read novels often, hardly ever, but you can't go wrong with McCarthy.

I've been reading some of the articles in Outside 25, some great journalism in there, especially the chapter on climbing and the wilderness.

I'm sure many of you have realized by now that my reading choices are almost completely derived from personal factors or a void I'm looking to fill, and you are correct. That's the great thing about graduating college, I have all this time to read books I actually like.

Next on my queue, if you have any suggestions or recommendations please feel free:
The Black Swan - Nassim Taleb
Age and Guile beat Youth, Innocence, and a Bad Haircut - P.J. O'Rourke
Rules for Radicals - Saul Alisnky
The Autobiography of Malcom X
Made to Stick - Chip and Dan Heath
Predictably Irrational - Dan Ariely
Blink - Malcolm Gladwell

Again, I want to give a big thank you to the reading lists of Tucker and Ryan. I don't think there's anything listed here that's not on their lists.

 

Re: The Idiot Board Book Club

I think you're getting at what disappointed me so much about On the Road (actually just finished it last week). Dean/Neal Cassady is supposed to have been this huge beatnik icon, I think he's referred to as "the hero of the beat generation" when in reality he's a lazy scumbag who likes to get high and talk too much. And I mean, I like getting high and talking as much as the next dude, but I'm nobody's fucking icon, am I? And Kerouac just seemed to go along with him and "observe" of whateverthefuck, which was even more ridiculous.

Ahem.

I just today started Nick Flynn's Another Bullshit Night in Suck City, his memoirs about dealing with his severely alcoholic homeless father in Boston. So far it seems really good, Flynn isn't the best writer I've ever read, but he's a goddamn great storyteller and it reads very easily. This is the last book I have that i'm really excited to read, though I do have an ace up my sleeve in the form of a $25 B&N gift card. After this I have to choose between the following:

Theo Fleury's autobiography (signed, no less, the only thing that could convince me to by a hardcover)
Glamorama by Bret Easton Ellis (love Ellis, but this one seems so... gay)
East of Eden - Steinbeck is always good, but this fucker is intimidating, isn't it?
When you are all engulfed in flames - David Sedaris. Notice how i didn't capitalize the title? I'm convinced I'm going to hate him. I've had this book for months and have read a bunch of shit I bought after it.

 

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Village Idiot - based on your descriptions of books you enjoy, have you read any of the Thursday Next series by Jasper Fforde? I've only read the first two so far, The Eyre Affair and Lost in a Good Book. They aren't deep, but they are charming and quirky.