Completely unrelated. This all went down after the party was over. Bachelor parties get a pass from me. I don't ask questions, I don't want details. Do what you want. But when you come home, don't be a douche. That's really all I ask.
There are two questionable albeit not necessarily false assumptions at play that you don't really address. 1) The majority of people want to live their sex lives as you do. Or even a large minority. Let's face it, dude: in the contemporary world, you're an outlier even amongst outliers. Not only now. For the overwhelming majority of human history. Outside of handful of rich kings and elites....whatever tendencies that human beings have shown to stray from monogamy have been far more muted than your own. Your posts contain an undercurrent of normalizing your experience and attitudes, and extrapolating them to a society free of hangups. That if we could merely drop the idea of 'slut,' crowds would suddenly be fucking left and right. I think this is likely overstating the point, and that even without hangups you're vastly overestimating the number of people who would want to have half the sexual partners that you do. Obviously there's no firm evidence either way, but is there any reason to think that it's more than a small minority of people who want to live like that? To be clear, I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with your lifestyle. I admire how comfortable you are with your desires, and your success in achieving them. I just don't know all that many people who would actually want to follow suit. What evidence is there of a demand for it? 2) Your characterization of gay sexual norms might be overly simplistic. The idea that they've often slept with many people merely due to innate desire for this lifestyle seems to be missing some factors. Specifically, that for the overwhelming majority of recent history, the "traditional" romantic and sexual lifestyle has been unavailable to them. To use your analogy, when we've systematically told a group of people, "No, you absolutely cannot be Lily and Marshall," it probably makes the lifestyle of Barney Stinson more appealing. Ghetto-izing people tends to make them give the middle finger to mainstream norms and institutions. I'm not saying they're mindless automatons; I just think you're ignoring the effect of the hand of cards that we've dealt them.
It's not like I can present proof that that's not the case. But for the overwhelming majority of human history, pregnancy was a major cause of death among women. There was no penicillin and there were no condoms. There's a clear benefit to monogamy still in in the third world where those things are essentially the case. There's a clear path for cultural evolution where monogamy leads to survival. But I think of the size of the communities I know - and how much taboo there is about non monogamy, and still how many people I personally know through Australia, the US, Canada, New Zealand, Western Europe, and the wealthier parts of africa and asia... I consider the divorce rates, the infidelity rates reported among monogamous couples, and the way gay and lesbian sexuality works so very often - and I think there's a pretty strong argument that Monogamy is an engrained cultural norm from a time when it added a lot to your life expectancy. But I don't think it's any more instinctive or natural than eating with chopsticks. Some people might be good at it - because it's all they've ever known. And some people might have a knack for it. But it's only the norm in the places where it's the norm, because it always has been. I'm probably an outlier among outliers in that I've never played farmville also. How many guys do you know who've never even fantasized about fucking 2 girls at once? Who've never imagined fucking a stranger? As a thought exercise, without cultural context and the fear of AIDS, Herpes, Unwanted Pregnancy or being robbed by the two strangers that you're having sex with, how many guys do you think would pass on it? No strings, no negative outcomes, amazing sex, and everyone goes home. There's a reason why the vast majority of gay relationships are consensually non-monogamous. And it is the vast and overwhelming majority. No matter what the marriage equality groups are saying - and no matter how long the men getting married have been partnered and in love? The vast majority of them fuck other people. And it doesn't impact on the strength of their marriage or their relationships. I clearly can't prove that in a world without stigma things would play out like I think they would. But as a thought exercise, easily 90% to 95% of guys who I've ever met or spoken too, would at least consider exploring that kind of casual sex for a while. Maybe they'd go back to being monogamous in between, but after a relationship breakup or exploring other women with their wife? The vast majority of guys would give it a try. I think lots of guys would have an issue with their partner/s being non monogamous. But I know a lot of guys who got over their qualms about sharing their partners while swinging, when they got to be shared also. I think given a magic cultural shift away from the stigma and negative perceptions of being a slut - the people who go to bars looking for hookups, and a lot of established relationship types, would find interest in things that are currently 'slutty'. Do you think that black people really wanted to sit at the front of the bus? That the seats are nicer and more comfortable? Or do you think that Rosa Parks was more motivated by a 'fuck you asshole, you aren't better than me' sense? I was raised by a gay man. I live in a gay district. My male friends are in the majority gay men. I personally enjoy gay men's sexual events and get to know a lot about gay guys in that sense. I think that no matter what roses and monogamy image is being presented to push equal rights - the idea that gay men all want to be monogamous and married is bullshit. Almost every gay 'Married' couple I know fucks other guys from time to time. A majority of the lesbian couples I know do the occasional threesome or other partner exploration. And while 'Gay Marriage' isn't available - there's nothing stopping gay men living as a married couple if they want to. Which most of them don't. Gay men fuck like bunnies, and enjoy sex in for the most part, an awesome an enviable way. It's currently not PC to discuss the sluttyness of gay men, like it would have been a faux pas to point out that black kids usually prefer to sit at the back of the fucking bus anyway. But the truth is that Gay Marriage is a visible focus because equality is important and it's bullshit that it's not legal. Not because gay people all secretly want to be The Beavers. Also, hang around a gay community for a while and watch the majority of monogamous relationships. Gay men have fucked up childhoods and crave love despite having very little understanding of what it's like to be in love. Gay men's attempts at monogamy are in the large majority about being in love with acceptance and normality and the idea of romantic love, rather than actual romantic love. I've lost track of how many of my gay friends find out their partner's last name, or full first name when signing a lease together or something. And there's a reason why the long duration gay marriages that work are so rarely monogamous.
You should be celebrating now. You now have him by the balls because pulling a dumbass double-deal like that was obviously stupid, a favourite place of ours known as "The Dog House" where you temporaily get to reinvent The Law while he hangs his head in shame, counting the minutes until the dark clouds scatter. It's not like you can stab him to death in his sleep because I assume you spend the extra dollars on Egyptian Cotton with a high thread count, so I'd say use this opprtunity of having the upper hand to see what you can get out of it. And while you're at it, threaten to dime his ass out on an international message board which has a main focus of tearing other human beings to shreds for shits and giggles, then pissing on the shreds. At least it's revenge, and that's what's important in a healthy relationship.
Question for scootah: I bow to your knowledge of the gay and lesbian communities and their sexual patterns. Setting that aside and looking at heterosexual sex: where do children fit in? The question thus far has been about sexual activity and whether or not it should be exclusive. Your argument is that the reasons for monogamy are cultural, based on safety standards that no longer apply. When it comes to children, though, doesn't that put the rules back towards monogamy? Especially for women? Note: I say, "especially for women" because women tend to shoulder more of the risk when it comes to babies. We lose time out of our careers when pregnant, and should the partnership dissolve the mother is almost always given primary custody.
... I'm just curious. What part of Monogamy do you think is better for the kids? Monogamy historically had a huge economic role in determining asset transition. But DNA testing, or the more logic driven leaving it to the kid you like most, regardless of their parentage means that we don't really need that model any more. If you particularly want to get knocked up by a particular person - periodic monogamy for conception, or medical assistance can make that happen. And if you have kids and still have a bunch of sexual partners - what's the harm to your kids exactly? Just because people have casual sex doesn't make them child harming bad people, and lots of people organize a baby sitter so they can go out and fuck now. There's lots of indications that a child is best raised by a village and may actively be benefited from an increased number of parental figures. Same sex parents among animal species (the canada snow goose is the most cited example, but penguins are another stand out) are often better parents (two male 'parents' of a stolen egg are better providers). There are indications that among humans, the children of same gender parents suffer no measurable harm and the children of lesbians actually appear to be slightly better off. In terms of time out of careers and partnership dissolution and custody allocation - I don't think the existing law really gives a fuck if you're monogamous. I understand that many women find their partners no longer wish to continue the relationship when the pregnancy is discovered and again my understanding is that there is quite a substantial body of law about the obligations of sperm donors who don't want to be active parents...
This is getting very dense. Let me see if I can simplify, and as a warning I am only speaking for myself right now. I wish I had a deep and intimate connection with another person (in my case, male). I have close, dear friends but it's not the same. There are a multitude of reasons why I haven't found a partner, but I think that a large part of it has been my attitude towards sexuality. My entire adult life I've treated sex casually, something to be done for fun with little consequences or connections. This has allowed me to develop the habit of completely separating intimacy and sex, and I'm now faced with the conundrum of 'how the fuck do I unlearn this because it is destructive?' Some people may benefit from polygamy, or polyamory, or swinging, or whatever 'atypical' brand of sexuality appeals to them. For people like me, though, it can be a slippery slope that creates more isolation than it creates relationships.
PS - I didn't mean to kill the thread. Talk about something fun. For instance: how much does the shape of the girl's vag influence the quality of the sex? Or...big boobs or small boobs, which are better?
I am intrigued by your topic dcc, and normally I would respond but I am an ambien and benadryl into the evening (damn allergies and insomnia) so I probably won't have anything of value to contribute. Plus I think I am brainwashed by my culture and can't take myself outside it enough to hold a fair discussion with scootah. Fascinating though, so you guys carry on. In the interest of changing the subject though, I spent way too much time today contemplating shimmered's boob dilemma. So, I was at the gym on the treadmill minding my own business when all of a sudden the gym was overrun with athletic girls with bad boob jobs. It was like pec muscle with a ball of silicone on top. Not very attractive. There has to be a technique difference where it won't look so awful, maybe they had the over the muscle kind when under is clearly a superior technique. All I thought was that shimmered better not do that to her gorgeous, strong, powerful body. I understand her desire for balance, but just do tons of research please.
Umm... I've fucked strangers and been part of a drunken orgy before, but the thought of my girlfriend getting railed by other dudes makes me want to vomit. My feelings are reciprocated, and in my circle of friends this is the norm. Your girlfriend getting railed by other dudes doesn't trigger any red flags in your head? For me when sex and intimacy become intertwined the repulsion is automatic. Maybe having Aspergers effects this? I don't mean to judge. I'm having trouble even articulating what I mean, but perhaps the TiBers with gfs understand?
I've done both; I was madly in love with a woman and connected with her on a level I haven't encountered since. Then she ripped my heart out and shat on it. Then burned it. Followed by enumerable other horrible, unspeakable things. Since then I've been getting my dick stamped like a passport; it's been a boat load of fun, but I kinda miss being that close to someone. One of my good female friends are her boyfriend are swingers, and they're very open with me about it. She had trouble with it at first, but she realized that it was the price of admission to be with him - and then she ran with it. I know it can work, but the stomach isn't an especially subtle organ - and mine is telling me that my girl getting railed by another dude isn't gonna fly.
I'm in the same camp, i couldn't imagine watching the gf get railed by another guy, id go fucking insane. Although i would have no problem whatsoever with my gf watching me rail another girl (she definitely would though) OR being the guy railing another guys gf/wife while he watches. Probably a fairly common double standard there though (maybe not the second part... am i alone there?).
I seriously don't understand how a flock of women can be attracted to a high school dropout with no real job and exactly one blank facial expression. I realize there are a million factors to attraction but damn, aren't there just some features in a guy that should be a total deal killer for any girl? Being a dropout might be the "bad boy" thing when you are actually in high school, but doesn't it just turn pathetic at some point if you're still waiting tables at 24 years old? I know it's dumb but damn it really eats at me.
It's certainly possible that aspergers affects my feelings on the matter. But this weekend at a fairly awesome party, there were four other guys who don't have aspergers who all fairly comfortably watched their girlfriend's get fucked. Very few swingers who I've met have Aspergers. But a lot of them either actively get off on watching their partner being fucked, or have at least come to grips with it as not that big a deal, or the price of the sex life they want. Dossie Easton, an Author who I really like, writes about starvation economies in relation to sex. Most people have this idea that romantic love and sexuality is a starvation economy. If your partner gives love or sex to some third party, they'll have less of it to give to you, and you need all of it, or you'll starve. But nobody ever talks about non romantic love like a starvation economy. Nobody ever thinks if they love their mother, they won't be able to love their father as much. Or that if they love one of their children, they won't be able to love the other. If you've ever had a double header (two sexual encounters with different partners on the same day, which previous threads suggest that many TiB'ers have done) - did you have less sex to give to the second partner because of the first? I mean there are some physical limits to how many times you can fuck before you run out of steam or start getting friction burns - but in my experience there's a hell of a margin between where most people stop, and where most people stop with two partners in a day, and where you could go if you had the interest and enthusiasm. There are starvation economies in multiple partner situations. Time is the biggest. There's only so much time to go around - and that's a pain in my ass every freaking day. If I didn't live in the sticks and have such a long commute, I could spend way more time with the people I'm involved with. But as it is? I'm lucky to get two days and three nights a week to spend with the ludicrous network of people I'm involved with. Most of the time I really, really like group sex. But sometimes it's just a practical solution so that everyone gets laid this weekend. It's not that I necessarily think my lifestyle is for everyone. Or even anything close to that. But I think a lot more people would feel a lot more comfortable exploring more interesting sex if you didn't get an automatic slut label for fucking 1 guy a year and after 6 years of sexual activity, fucking two guys who knew each other. Exterior shape of a girl's vag is a small influence, but position makes a huge difference. Both angle and location makes a more noticeable difference. One of the girls I'm playing with is like one of those puzzles where wiggling at the exact angle is the only way to get it in. Fundamentally though, attitude makes more difference than anything else. A girl who's really into it and enthusiastic about the whole thing is so much more fun than someone who's reserved/holding back/can't relax into it and have fun.
Scootah, how much of what happens in your community is to do with the stroking of one's ego through and the feelings of feeling desired, feeling accepted and being able to do what one might (reasonably) think is the unfullfilled fantasy of all the other guys (and gals) out there versus simply enjoying sex with multiple partners and in groups?
I guess before trying to answer this I need to better understand exactly what you mean so I am hoping this question enables that: In what way do you view this dilemma you're in as different from the fairly typical "fuck around casually until you meet the 'right one' and settle down" scenario that is fairly often described in both pop media and in stories on this board? Or is it not different, but that that transition just seems daunting or impossible?
Thank you for the kind words! the girls you saw probably had over the muscle too large round saline implants. Things I do not want. Submuscular, cohesive gel, anatomical shaped, realistically sized is where I'd take it. Titties that could be squeezed and kneaded without feeling like They're going to pop.