Good question. Yes, I kind of do. When I spark with someone sexually, I'm simply not one of those girls that can play hard to get or be coy or whatever. If I want to fuck the guy, and he wants to sleep with me, then we do. This never works well. Either you have a 'relationship' that is based purely on sexual tension and - once that tension has been lifted - you realize you want nothing more to do with each other, OR the relationship is defined as purely a physical one. Granted, I know that to a very large degree I'm self-selecting; I always tend to go for a certain type of guy, so it should be no surprise that it always turns out the same. I'd love to know how some women can have a powerful sexual attraction to a guy that you know is requited, and not act on it. I think it would be healthier and all-around better; I've just never been able to do it.
For me, the answer is no. I'm firmly opposed to artificial rules for when one can/should sleep with someone. Sleep with them whenever you want, be that later or earlier than average. But also I find her statement insufficiently specific. Well, one issue is departure from the idea of "dating." Fewer people go on "dates" in the traditional sense now. And when does one begin 'dating' a person? What if, rather than a stereotypical first date, you met because you were at a few events together by way of mutual friends? EDIT: I see that your second post indicated that she meant the term as basically "exclusively dating." In this case... sort of. I would say that on average, yes, first time having sex precedes the exclusive label. If a girl wanted it the other way around, I would have no problem with it. One issue that I see is that many people mess around or date casually for a reasonably extended period of time before becoming exclusive. I've kinda been seeing someone for at least a month if not more, and as far as I know, we're not explicitly exclusive. This doesn't seem strange to me. However, if I'd been dating her for over a month without sex, it would see at least slightly abnormal.
Why do you think that denying mutual pleasure is healthier than taking what you want at no one's expense? No offense, but it sounds like you're either attracted to shitty guys, guys that have no desire to settle down, you haven't let your true personality show with the decent (this is very subjective) guys or your standards are unrealistic. Here's a question, who usually breaks things off? You, the guy, or do things just fizzle? I'm not trying to attack you, but you seem very jaded and self loathing when it comes to love.
... I have very few comments on the current conversation - because fuck, I know I'm not the norm for these situations. But my first thought is that attraction is an emotional response - or at least attraction beyond the physical. I'm attracted on a purely physical level to Jessica Alba. In her interviews - her personality doesn't seem attractive at all - but she's got an amazing ass. I would absolutely fuck her, just to know what she tastes like - but unless her personality when she's being interviewed is as fake as her other roles - I doubt there'd be any emotional context. Most people that I'm attracted too who aren't celebrities though - I'm attracted to their personality as much as their physicality. I'm attracted to people who seem like they'd be fun to fuck and fun to hang out with. There's no hallmark/sex and the city/better than chocolate emotion there - but there's absolutely emotion - and despite being kind of a man whore, most of the people I've fucked, I considered friends, or at least people I'd like to be friends with. The adoration/love/sincere desire to see them happy and willingness to work for that beyond as a friend kind of emotion though? That's a rare thing for me. And that's completely unrelated to sex. It might be more likely with someone who I'm fucking, and I'm likely to want to fuck someone who I feel that way about. But correlation != causation. They're different things. In terms of the fucking before dating thing - I think there's some terminology cross over in the conversation. I doubt anyone things that most people have sex before they go out on a date. I mean even at my house, most sexual partners have at least gone for a drink or gone to a party together before they hook up. I think by 'dating' she must mean the heavy / intense / exclusive or at least kind of serious about each other sort of dating. And really, who doesn't fuck before forming a relationship these days? I'm sure there are people who wait for marriage, or wait for a long and involved dynamic before they bump uglies - but those people are surely the exceptions rather than the rule. Admittedly, I usually want to fuck someone before I make the effort to remember their last name. But does anyone want to go through the time and investment of getting heavily involved with someone only to find out that they're sexually incompatible? That they're too aggressive/too passive/too bossy/not bossy enough? A hefty portion of the unhappiest people I know are people who are in love and monogamous, with someone who doesn't sexually satisfy them. Because they don't want to hurt their partner and be a jerk - but they do want something they're not getting sexually. I can't imagine anyone who's had both enjoyable and bad/mediocre sexual partners who wouldn't want to road test a potential partner before committing.
Maybe because I came into my prime well after Bill Clinton made BJs a national craze but I don't think I've EVER had a relationship that started with a traditional one on one date. We either met through friends and hung out like you say or we hooked up the first night and decided to hang out again later on. Either way there was at least some social time out with each other before going on a one on one. I have only one friend that still sticks to tradition, he'll meet girls at the fucking bank or seemingly random places and ask them out to dinner. Trying to get someone into an awkward one on one date straight off never meeting them before seems kind of odd.
There's a few things at play here, though. One is that we've both recently (well, somewhat recently) graduated college. You tend to not go on dates in college because of the greater level of group social events. There's always plenty of girls at various parties, you spend more time at large events, etc. Second is that neither of us is super old. We're both far from the age when marriage/baby clocks start ticking. My brother is 13 years older than me, and hence is forced to go through the dating rigamarole because when you're at that point in your life you tend to evaluate your potential mates more critically. But there's still the generational factor. That we perceive one on one dates as awkward or odd (at least, beyond the fact that any and all dating is usually awkward and odd...) is somewhat unique. And there's also the fact that no one our age feels like he or she needs to pursue serious relationships in order to get semi-regular sex. That wasn't always the case.
I'm not going to pull a scootah here and derail this thread with my own anecdotal stories*. To answer your question in a general sense, I think that rushing into sex can sometimes cut the legs out of a relationship. It may give the impression that you're easy, or that you view sex casually. The big issue, I think, is that you don't take the time to actually know the other person, and yet because you've slept with them you already know them in the most intimate way possible. When I look at my dear, close friends (male or female), those relationships grew over time and became stronger because we spent time together and built strong bonds. I've never had any success when sex was involved doing the same thing. To me, at least, when sex gets thrown into the relationship early on it halts any deeper emotional connection from happening. Like I said, though, I fully recognize that I am drawn to the wrong people, so that is a big chunk of the problem. *Kidding scootah! You know I <3 you!
I can see that, but at the same time, does it not seem weird that you're viewing sex as some sort of end game while also actively seeking or at least wanting to move towards a relationship? That after sex it's not worth getting to know the person? I definitely understand mutually using one another for sex with no intentions of a relationship, but it sounds like you're hooking up with guys under a 'no emotions' pretense while secretly hoping they will want to find out more about you as a person. I could be wrong, but like a person who had the 'bad luck' of five shitty roommates in a row I'm willing to bet the problem can be found in the mirror. Edit: of course I write this as soon as she (correctly) says it should probably be taken to PM, but just to be clear, I don't think DCC is a moron or anything, just trying to be helpful.
Something that comes easily will always have less value. If I’m with a girl and sex is available on the first “date” I’m not going to say no. Sorry girls but it’s your job to be the brakes. I have never had a relationship with a girl that I've had sex with straight up. We have become friends later, after they got over thinking I’m a bastard. But no intimate relations. Also friends who have been in relationships that instigated with sex straight up have been rocky and short lived. Same principle behind a kid earning his pocket money versus being given it. The one who earns it will take more care of how it is applied and appreciate it’s value, the kid who is given it for nothing won’t give a thought to blowing it on shit, there will always be more. And girls, if you’re looking for love dating a guy for a few weeks before jumping in the sack will weed out the predatory assholes very nicely. Shagging on the first date and then complaining about male bastadry is like the frog giving the scorpion a lift across the river.
I do want to clarify something: I hope I haven't given the impression that I'm lamenting that the guys I've been with haven't wanted a relationship. This is not the case. I go into it with eyes wide open and fully expect not to date the guy or have anything long term. I have a chip on my shoulder for women who do this. Those girls who think they will change someone, or that they are so incredibly great that the guy will leave his wife or whatever. This is not me. My problem, as I've said, is that I'm never attracted to a guy that I could actually see myself in a relationship with. Sorry for this (hopefully final) derail. This is exactly what I'm saying. If you sleep with a guy immediately, what LTMS described happens, both in my experience and from my observations. It seems to just set the wrong tone for the relationship. Yes, there are exceptions but I find in general it's a safe bet that fucking someone you met three hours ago will lead nowhere.
Am I the only one who hasn't had problems with having sex early on ruining relationship potential? I've only once walked away from having sex with someone early on expecting it to progress into something more and then never heard from him again. Other than that we've either gotten into a serious relationship, dated, or had a mutual understanding that it was a one night type of thing. I honestly was unaware that this happened with such frequency outside of chick flicks.
... Do you actually want to be in a relationship with someone who views sex as a currency that they have to earn? Do you want a relationship where you keep your vagina locked up like a payroll and only give out access to it when he takes out the trash or buys you flowers? Because in my experience that sets the tone for a relationship where sex becomes a chore for the person holding it hostage, and considerate acts are only performed by the horny partner when they want to get laid. I'm a big fan of sex when it feels like a good idea for both of you - holding off to make him work for it, or putting out because it's the third date and expected seems to have a lot in common with being a whore in my mind. And if that's how you want to go about it, whatever. But I wouldn't be able to stand having sexuality in my relationship feel like work. ych.
Umm...I don't think that's what I said. What I think works best for potential long-term relationships is to get to know someone a little bit before you start sleeping with them. I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone follow The Rules or any other such nonsense, and I'm REALLY not suggesting treating sex as currency. I'd like a happy medium where the sexual attraction can exist without interfering with the relationship getting built.
I sincerely hope I'm not beating on a dead horse here, but I think what Scootah is saying is that the guys you seem to be sleeping with have the attitude: "I got what I came for, now I can move on" And it sounds like your mentality, despite not acting on it, is: "I need to hold the pussy off long enough so he gets to know me as a person before we sleep together." Whereas our (or at least my) mentality is that the the thought process should be: "I like sex, they like sex, we'll have sex and if something develops so be it"
My mentality is that how I combine sexuality with intimacy is all kinds of fucked up, and - for me, personally - I'd like to be attracted to a different type of guy. Failing that, I'd like the self control to NOT act on impulse and repeat past mistakes. This works great in theory - like I said, and as LTMS described, though, in practice jumping in the sack right away usually never goes anywhere.
So now choosing to not have sex with somebody simply because there is mutual physical attraction despite the lack of a mental connection equates to some sort of game playing and trading of the sex for a relationship. Hmmm, for somebody who is so "open minded" that seems to be a rather narrow minded judgement call. Edit - I guess people are confused to who that was directing it to, I felt I was just following the conversation, but I'll clarify. This was to Scooter and Frank who acknowledge the I want you, you want me, let's fuck mentality, but feel that actually wanting to form a relationship first thing is some sort of game. That is how I have read the last several posts anyway. Maybe I am wrong. There has been some wine tonight.
Wow, maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it seems like you're insinuating we think it's cool to go around grunting until we find someone that meets a sufficient attractiveness quotient and just fuck them if they let us. What I'm getting at is that after you talk to someone for a bit, enjoy their company and find them attractive, if they feel the same way it's stupid to follow these arbitrary "three date" rules before you have sex. I'm not in any way insinuating that someone should have sex with every single person they are attracted to that's willing, in fact I think that's the very definition of a slut.
I edited my post while you posted this...you did seem to insinuate that. I don't think DCC was talking about following "the rules" or whatever, just mentioning that having some basis for a relationship other than the physical is a better predictor of developing anything that may be long term. Nothing wrong with getting to know somebody a bit first. Doesn't mean they are using sex as currency (and I wasn't the one who first used this term)
I see it more like this: [Post coital] Girl: Wow, that was great! Guy: Yeah, it was. Girl: I'm so glad we waited. Guy: Yeah... worth waiting for. Girl: I knew it would be so much better that we waited until we were in a relationship. Guy: We're in a what now?