Weekend Sober Thread: Shit's Gettin' Real in Egypt

I don't think revolution is that easy. My money would them be saying "game on bitches" and bringing their own toys to the party.

 

Yeah, that's sad, and despite my best attempts with Mr. Johnny Walker, it's quite sobering.

We are watching the beginning of a country fighting for it's freedom. At one point, this was America, except it got (understatement incredibly worse, for an incredible amount of time.

It's hard not to "root" for the protesters at this point. Whether or not they will like America after this is all said and done, what they are fighting for -- namely, freedom -- is nothing if not a noble cause.

Do they have a clear-cut plan for what they'll do if/after they win? Hell fucking no. Did Americans when we fought the British? Hell fucking no. But we knew we wanted something different, and so do the Egyptians.

Kudos to them.

This next scotch is for the protesters.

 

The opposite is true. The last thing the Egyptians want is intervention, and they've said as much. If large scale massacre starts to occur, the UN will absolutely intervene.

The United States can't do a thing. If we support Mubarak, we paint ourselves as anti-democracy. If we support the protestors, we tell all of our allies that we are unreliable when the shit hits the fan.

Egypt will be alright. The protestors won't get freedom, but nobody has freedom. They will, however, get less oppression, and that's all anybody wants.

 

It isn't cynicism. It's the Middle Eastern point of view. Most Arabs I know laugh at the American notion of "freedom", which is considered an absolute thing in the Middle East. You either have freedom, or you don't, and the only people who truly have "freedom" are children who can live a life without consequence.

It's a matter of semantics, I know, but it is an important distinction when you talk about the Middle East through the glasses of a westerner. When the US brought "freedom" to Iraq many Iraqis interpreted that to mean lawlessness, which is how they perceive America: a decadent orgy without law or creed.

Egyptians are fighting against oppression, but the end result of that isn't freedom... it is just less oppression. Which is a fantastic thing.

 

I think one of the take aways here (other than the liberation of Egypt!) is that one irrational douchebag doesn't have the power to screw things up that we might think. 50 irrational douchebags rode horses and camels into the crowd earlier today, and still deaths from the latest clashes are in the single digits.

 

I too am consistently amazed at the casualty figures. The way the footage looks, I would have expected at least a thousand or so.

Still, the number of wounded is probably enormous, and that really is all Mubarak's fault. I completely fail to understand people like this. How can a person be so fucking evil?

 

That's a good point. CNN just replayed the cavalry charge and it appeared that just before those assholes decided to do that the demonstrators were literally hugging it out.

If some guy tried to trample me with a horse there is a strong chance that I would beat him to death given the opportunity.

The question AJE keeps asking is when/if/should the military be involved. I think they are going to have to choose sides sooner than later. Without full military support can either side take control?

 

I am rattled at the ignorance and just sheer stupidity of people. Here is the following quick convo with someont

Her: why are you still up its pretty late
Me: curfew is breaking in a bit so I want to see how the day will start out in Egypt
Her: oh ya Egypt thats why channel 131 was down
Me:....

thats what people are taking from this, an internet movie site got shut down. fucking unreal. their regular programming got interupted


and as an aside I think thats just Obama's administration targeting piracy/tv shows on the net and not even related to Egypt

 

I put up a thing on facebook saying "turn on cnn, people." First reponse I get is "no" which gets 2 likes. Then another saying "rather play Black Ops" which gets another like. Luckily, a few of my less ignorant friends chimed in calling them idiots and such before I really got pissed off.

 

I'm hoping, perhaps naively, that this situation forces a shift in our foreign policy. The politics of the past thirty odd years dictated that supporting authoritarian regimes worked to our benefit in the short-term. The people under those regimes were powerless enough to remain oppressed, giving us the room to do what we wanted to do. All well and good, until the populous decides they've had enough and reject not just their leaders, but any outside influence that props them up.

Now, though, it seems these people are demanding a higher standard of government, as well as the accountability of global powers with regard to the leaders they support. Rightly so, on both counts. I view this as an opportunity for the United States to stop saying, "We'll back you as long as you keep them quiet." and opt for "We'll support you if you meet certain criteria that are not conducive to breeding extremism" which is exactly what men like Mubarak do.

This is not merely a matter of what is ethically correct. This is what is practical.

 

This won't really add anything but just wanted to say thanks to everyone for posting updates and stuff. I'm at school and don't have TV at my place and I'm pretty busy so the quick updates here are easier to follow. (Yes, I know that I should take the time out to follow along more diligently, but as you know my professors won't see it the same way, such is life.)

 

The pros and cons of realpolitik could take up a whole thread, but in this instance you are right... the US government is forces to put Kissinger's bane aside and actually use a little pragmatism in their diplomacy. I doubt it will stick, though.

 

Al Jazeera English is down, no word as to why.

Alternative feed: <a class="postlink" href="http://www.livestation.com/channels/3-al-jazeera-english-english" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.livestation.com/channels/3-a ... sh-english</a>

 

For the people worried about radical Islamic brohams taking over Egypt, here's a picture reportedly of Christian Egyptians protecting Muslims during their prayers.



Oh no! Can't let Christians in Egypt have the vote, because they support radical Islam!

 

A well known Radio-Canada reporter and his cameraman got attacked yesterday. They had the guy talking about it at the 10pm newscast, and the guy looked 15 years older from the stress.

Him, his cameraman and their egyptian interpreter were on the far edges of the "fight", with the cameraman being super discrete (using a handheld small camera). A posse approached and started talking with the interpreter. Pretty soon, the discussion turned "animated" and the newsmen wisely decided to pull back slowly ( as in, not running) towards the square. The posse attacked and started beating the shit out of the cameraman.... Random people helped em escape and they moved away, thinking they had escaped it... but the posse rushed em again and started beating the cameraman even more severely ( surrounded, on the ground, being kicked by 10 guys at the same time). The reporter ran to an army tank and begged for help from the soldiers, who saved the cameraman's life.

They mentionned the cameraman got so smashed up they're sending him home on the first plane.

 

On that topic, here's a realist (well neorealist) viewpoint on what the US should do:
http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/01/31/a_realist_policy_for_egypt

 

Al-Jazeera English reporting that Mubarak's dismissed ministers have been detained and denied the right to leave the country. My first thought was "Hang 'em high." My second thought was "patsy move."

Two straight days of beatings, shooting and anti-riot measures and these people remain in Tahrir Square. Simply inspiring. Take notes, folks. This is what resolve looks like.

 

Jesus, did anyone see the shot of the protester with a fucking cooking pot strapped to his head like a helmet? It would make me laugh if it weren't so pitifully endearing.

 

The guy was awesome. Not only did he make sure to mention that he brought his helmet from home (I guess to distinguish from the people salvage state police equipment), but he even said he borrowed it from a neighbor. Dude didn't have his own pot! ...Or didn't want his own to get messed up.