Weekend Sober Thread: Shit's Gettin' Real in Egypt

Arabs, Islam, and the Middle East were the center of civilization, science, art, mathematics and health care a couple centuries back. They are the only civilization in the history of the world (that I'm aware of) that have not only not progressed with the times, but have regressed. They are worse off now than they were 700 years ago.

As time goes by, I can't help but think that it's time for Glassparkinglotistan Theme Park.

 

I might not be correct in thinking this but don't we have Wikileaks to thank for starting all of this?

I believe we live in amazing times and I seriously hope that the people of Egypt can arrange a government to express their will. All the complaints about their religion, their poverty and their education forget the basic human dignity these people deserve. They have a right to demand certain things of their government, like transparency and an interest in the welfare of it's people. It's a political shitshow, it has been for centuries. That doesn't mean it's hopeless, nor does it mean that these people should be marginalized any longer.

For all the bullshit about Islam, there are fundamentalists and extremists in every religion. I'm pretty sure that a religion of billions is not a cult, and millions of Muslims could not give less of a fuck about jihad or what "The West" has to say about their way of life.

I hope we are witnessing the first steps of progress in places that desperately need it.

 

No.

I'm going to largely refrain from this display of armchair politics, but I will say that it would appear the U.S. learned something from the '79 Iranian Revolution: you never, ever publicly and firmly come down on the side of an unpopular dictator in a country where street protests are capable of causing a regime change. The State Department is doing exactly what it should be doing: urging restraint and waiting to see where the chips fall. They don't give a shit about Mubarak, and he's not the only potential leader that could maintain peace with Israel. So now it's Wait and See. I sympathize utterly with the protesters, but I'll be damned if I want to see my government taking sides at this point in time. You play to win the game.

Also, the assumption that Egypt, one of the most culturally developed societies in the world would invariably shift to a fundamentalist-driven caliphate overnight is profoundly idiotic. Egypt is not Iran, it is not Tunisia, it is not Jordan, Yemen or Saudi Arabia. Apples and oranges.

 

I'm pretty sure that it most certainly is. I don't give a fuck if its got ten or ten billion people in it.

 

Not to get all "white people are better than brown people" over here, but perhaps instead of this:



a better way to overthrow your oppressive government might be this:



Come on, we've seen your New Years/Wedding/TGIF videos. We know you all have assault rifles. Elect a congress, pick a color, form ranks and do this right. Less rioting, more rebelling.

 

Having spent far, FAR more time around Islam in its many forms than you have, I can state without hesitation that your above post has nothing to do with reality and everything to do with propaganda... propaganda you've thoroughly digested. I'm glad someone let you borrow "The Political Incorrect Guide to Islam" or some other such nonsense, but that makes you an expert on approximately nothing.

Christianity was founded by a hippie wizard who later became a zombie. As an atheist, having read both the Bible and the Qu'ran (and I spell it that way because I speak Arabic and it is a phonetic... and closer than Koran), they are about even keel in their insanity. So what? EVERYTHING in the Middle East is about poverty and class... religion is just the icing on the cake. People align themselves based on geographical locations and families--and guess what--that typically means they are all part of the same sect of Islam. Correlation does not equal causation.

Also, the Ecumenical councils happened before Islam was even created. If one of them follows newer tenants, it is Islam.

Have you even visited the Middle East? Do you have any life experience related to the subject, or has it all come from books like "Why I Am Not a Muslim?"

 

The Iranian Revolution was a response to Westernization. Egypt is already utterly Westernized. Their middle and upper classes begin English classes in grade school. They have access to Western films, music and television, and have for decades. Decades.

Also, Egyptian Arabic dominates Arab newspapers and news media and Cairo is the Hollywood of the Middle East. If you're watching a film in Arabic, its almost a certainty that it was made in Egypt, or produced by Egyptians.

So, no, there is absolutely no cultural comparison between Egypt and pre-revolution Iran.

 

Come on, dude. I have as much a hard a time as you as not telling someone they're a fucking idiot when they say that Islam is "a really peaceful religion". I know that the calls to violence against infidels and women is contained right in the Koran, and it's not simply a "misinterpretation". I've seen articles in my school paper claiming that countries that are trying to ban the burqa (the burka, mind you, not headscarves) are every bit as repressive as countries that enforce its wearing, and wondered if the idiot who wrote it had ever tried to walk through the streets of Tehran without covering her head and compared the experience to wearing a burka in Paris. Whether or not it was spelled with a K, a Q or a C, apologists and relativists would hold the same opinion, and the fanatics wouldn't notice.

To get back to your original point; most of what needs to be said about the Tunisian and Egyptian protests couldn't be said by most 20 to 40 somethings because, regardless of the education they received, they know more about the ins and outs of their cell phone plans than they do about the rest of the world. I'll bet you money that a good number of people in that age group wouldn't be able to point out Tunisia with any greater accuracy than pointing somewhere in Africa. Besides this, what you said would have been declared as racist was merely some glum predictions about the future for Tunisia. You took it as an opportunity to get something off your chest about political correctness and your feelings about Islam. Look at the links you posted: things about Iranian women being stoned, pedophilia, and child suicide bombers. Other than the fact that honour killings, genital mutilation and taking children as brides happen to take place in Egypt and Tunisia, this is pretty tangential to the subject of the protests themselves.

 

That is quite right, but on a selective basis which winds down to the people that set the example. I'm sorry, but repressing people for expressing unpopular opinions, executing people in the street for things we wouldn't even frown upon in the west and enslaving children is barbaric, unforgivable caveman bullshit. The only issue is that this shit will never change because fundamentalists will never stop believing in the Qu'ran, a stupid, violent and hateful book just like the Old Testament (or King James Bible for that matter). And because they refuse to accept it at anything except for what it is (and whichever fucking con artist wrote it), some will put it to good use while other oppressive goons will see to it that women and children will be continued to be abused and senslessly slaughtered. I recently read an article about an Afghani woman who's husband beat her every single day since she married him at 14. When he beat her so badly she finally mustered the courage to run to the neighbours for help, her husband and his friends dragged her kicking and screaming into the hills, tore her hair out and cut off her nose and ears. Why? She left the house without permission.

That is fucked up beyond belief. Not even animals would torture a soul like that with such vindiction. This shit is what hits the news, and thatr is how the West see Muslim men. YEs, that shit happens. A LOT. But it paints and entire culture with such fat brush strokes.

We will be dead for 2000 years probably before the shit stops hitting the palm fronds in the Middle East. The Muslims will hate Israel for shunting them into the filthy Gaza Strip, Israel with hate Muslims for building their most treasured Mosque directly on top of Solomon's original Holy Temple mount, the holiest place in Judism. ...amongst MANY OTHER THINGS to hate each for and many other forms.

The thing is, if you haven't lived there (which I haven't) you'll never "get it" (which I don't). I only know what I read and hear, so others who know the subject better would be greatly appreciated in being heard.

On the opinion of Egypt? I side with the people on this much like I did Ukraine's Orange Revolution from years ago. Eventually you act like a total bully-asshole and fuck with a nation long enough and it fucks with you back, with good reason. However, I think we can all see there is no clean exit for this.

 

This is absolutely correct. Egypt is about as "westernized" as a Middle Eastern country can be (interestingly, the Arabic word for "foreigner", Ghareeb, comes from Gharb, the word for "West").

Iran itself has become extremely Westernized as well, and it is just a matter of time before the 20-30 somethings become th 40-50 somethings and their children overthrow the Sharia powers that be.

 

This.

Other than the issue of who the new government wants to attack, the whole "are islams all evil and evil sympathizers?" thing is off topic.

 

There is no centralized Islamic "government", as it exists in the Catholic church, so there isn't a whole lot that can be done as far as a global "reform." Certain sects practice certain things, others don't. The vast majority of Muslims are so-called "moderates" that don't follow Sharia law. Beyond that, there hasn't been a public outcry from Islam mostly because those moderates don't even view the radicals as being a part of their religion. When Pat Robertson and Fred Phelps says something insane, do we hear apologies from other Christians? No, we don't. When the IRA blows up a car, does the Catholic Church apologize? No, they don't. We hold Islam to a different standard as Christianity because we grew up with the one about Jesus and know that most people that follow it are normal, non-violent folk. When it comes to Islam, we simply believe the fiction and become afraid, demanding "apologies" and "reformations" that haven't occurred elsewhere.

My problem with your post had nothing to do with you being an expert or not. It had to do with you holding yourself up to being well-versed on the subject when its tone is identical to the two most popular anti-Islam propaganda books (the two I mentioned earlier). In the Middle East, most people believe that we (as Americans) are wholly decadent, regularly engage in huge orgies, have sex with 1000's of partners in our lifetimes, have open marriages, are drunk and high constantly, pray to the devil, sacrifice children to Jesus, dress up in leather and beat each other for sexual pleasure, and all sorts of other stuff. Some of that, of course, does indeed happen. But the ratio of truth to fiction of their perceptions is similar to ours.

I'm not an expert, but I've lived in the Middle East for an appreciable amount of time and speak the language enough to talk to locals about issues like these. My only dog in this fight is the desire for accuracy instead of agenda.

 

There can be no doubt that the Wahhabist movement has spurred a lot of the hegemonical aspirations of some of these groups. And you are right as to the reasons why the message appeals to poor, young men, especially when they will never have enough money to marry.

The moderates go along because the central governments aren't strong enough to help them if they rise again. For example, in Iraq the police rarely go up against members of the Mahdi Army not because they are afraid or agree with their politics, but because they know that the government won't take care of their families when they are killed doing what is right. It isn't an issue of religion, but rather familial and tribal survival.

The numbers of these people are very, very small, though. Most of the "terrorist" actions have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with class stratification. Sure, the Sunnis have been able to convince a few hundred kids to blow themselves up, but that is still a small number.

You are absolutely right that religion can be the greatest source of cognitive dissonance for people in the justification of their "evil" actions.

Religion will always be an enabler as long as it exists. There is nothing more important to humans as the idea of "us vs. them", and religion is a fine way to define those lines for people.

Like I said before, the moderate Islamic leaders don't even consider the fundamentalists real Muslims. Why should they have to answer for the deeds of another?

Egypt has an extremely large Coptic population that won't let the Muslims take control. There may be a violent fight in order to fill the power vacuum, but this fight is about being able to actually choose their leaders, poverty, and oppression. Not religion.

 

If I can go on a tangent here and discuss the revolt in Egypt, the king of Saudi Arabia has come out in support of the Egyptian government.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/01/29/egypt.middle.east.reaction/index.html?hpt=T2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/01/ ... tml?hpt=T2</a>

Guess it's not a big surprise that a dictator would support another dictator, but you'd think with so many countries rioting against the governments, this might be a good time to shut up.

 

Although they haven't exactly been stable for a while, Yemen is starting in on the action too.

<a class="postlink" href="http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/01/2011129112626339573.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middl ... 39573.html</a>

 

A third of the Saudi population are foreign nationals who live and work in the country. The royal family has more money than God, doesn't completely rely on U.S. military aid, and has zero compunction about expelling or imprisoning any amount of individuals who express negative opinions about the regime. The House of Saud doesn't do touch-and-go politics. A Saudi revolt like the one in Egypt is highly, highly improbable.

 

Pretty awesome even if it does have a cheesy soundtrack. The dude 45 seconds in makes me ashamed when I bitch about my white guy problems that the liquor store is out of Jameson.

 

Sounds a bit like the British Empire in the American Revolution.

 

This topic is NOT about Islam, and what is happening in Egypt has little to no connection with Islam. However, I will say this because of some things I've seen in this thread. The vast majority of Muslims in the vast majority of Muslim countries don't give a flying fuck about the West, America, or anything of that nature. I know it seems like the region as a whole is trying to destroy the West, but the vast majority of this region is poor, and poor people have bigger concerns...like putting food on the table for their families. Research has shown that the average jihadist and most extremist clerics came from what would equate to upper middle class in those regions; AKA people who have enough leisure time to give a shit about global politics.

Now, leaving the nonsense about Islam aside, I see this as a wonderful ray of light in a dark dark tunnel. The middle east is almost entirely run by tyrants and the ousting of these tyrants is a sign of great hope. Just today, new leaders of Tunisia came to an economic forum and declared that Tunisia is open for business. This is exactly the type of change the region needs and we must hope that this is the beginning of a domino effect that sweeps through more middle eastern countries. It also goes to show that change from within is far more effective than the alternative (cough Afghanistan/Iraq). Remember, as recently as last year, most people would agree that political upheaval is highly unlikely in Egypt. If Egyptian revolt is possible, then why not Saudi Arabia etc.?