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Weekend Sober Thread: Shit's Gettin' Real in Egypt

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by DrFrylock, Jan 28, 2011.

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  1. Beefy Phil

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    The average soldier is embraced by the public, if for no other reason than any given rifleman is any given protester's cousin. The higher up the military food chain you go, the less trust is given. I've heard a few interviews with activists who've stated they want the general staff out of power as soon as possible and replaced by younger members of the officer corps.

    Remember, Nasser was a Colonel, Sadat a Lt. Colonel, and Mubarak an Air Chief Marshal. Egypt has essentially existed under military control since its first revolution. At this point, I'd guess that public affection for the army is almost definitely more a symptom of its average-joe composition and the understanding that any revolution will ultimately fail without its support, rather than an ideological respect for the institution as a whole. The entire Supreme Council held power under Mubarak. The threat of another dictator stepping in is still very real.
     
    #501 Beefy Phil, Feb 17, 2011
  2. ghettoastronaut

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    Maaaaybe he was being sarcastic.

    You know, you and KIMaster are right about this. The idea that a group of people who have already gone around indiscriminately beating civilians and journalists alike while disguising themselves as their political opposition could possibly go around and commit worse atrocities is simply unfathomable. It is particularly unfathomable if these people were police officers in plainclothes, and double super triple unlikely in a country where women are harassed almost compulsorily if they are without a male escort.

    The point I was making is rather peripheral to the issue of Logan being assaulted. But put it in context. The anti-Mubarak demonstrators were rather peaceful. We've all seen the images of Christian demonstrators holding hands around Muslim protesters as the latter made their daily prayers. The pro-Mubarak forces were almost certainly policemen or other thugs in line with the regime, who went around committing violence indiscriminately. If it is so crazy to suggest that maybe this sexual assault was committed by the latter group, then clearly we have divergent opinions on what is crazy. And this doesn't even need to be politically motivated: the Egyptian police hardly had high standards of conduct to begin with and they've been running around for two weeks stirring up shit. Maybe they raped a journalist for shits and giggles and the fog of the situation made it seem like the people who did it were the same types who had been holding hands and praying a week before. It's not like it would be the first time to have happened in human history.
     
    #502 ghettoastronaut, Feb 17, 2011
  3. Nettdata

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    Mobs are a dangerous thing, and fucking weird things can happen in them, regardless of your political affiliations. I was only referring to the plausibility of such actions being used as social and media influences, not the actuality of them.

    As to the military, I tend to think that more than anything their apparent neutrality in the situation speaks volumes for their chain of command and the control being demonstrated by their military leadership.

    I could very easily imagine any of the soldiers becoming caught up in the protest, and yet it doesn't seem to be happening.
     
    #503 Nettdata, Feb 17, 2011
  4. KIMaster

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    I partially responded to this with Nettdata, but with Mubarak already deposed, what would these alleged "disguised" loyalists get out of beating and raping some Western journalist?

    And are you saying that there are dozens (because that's how many snatched Logan) of these loyalists among every single protesting group in the country? They don't have even a thousandth of the manpower to do this!

    Finally, and most concretely, how the hell would they "disguise" themselves and fool every single media outlet, who, by the way, is very sympathetic to their cause, especially CBS?

    Like I said, it's loony rationalization. Why is it so hard to accept that some of the people on the side of an issue you support can be evil? There are evil people on all sides.
     
    #504 KIMaster, Feb 17, 2011
  5. LessTalk MoreStab

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    I confess, I was being a little sarcastic.

    Nettdata Edit: I meant what I said. Removed the BS, and giving you a day off.
     
    #505 LessTalk MoreStab, Feb 17, 2011
  6. Nettdata

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    Why rationalize their actions?

    It's called a Mob Mentality, and sometimes it is irrational.

    But maybe they ARE pro-Mubarek, maybe even (now ex) police force, and maybe they see a reporter, female no less, and they focus their anger on her, as a symbol of the forces that have now removed them from their places of power and control? And maybe they wish to cause her pain and suffering and see rape/sexual assault as a suitable recourse?
     
    #506 Nettdata, Feb 17, 2011
  7. KIMaster

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    Right. That's what makes mobs so violent and dangerous.

    I think you meant to write "pro-Mubarek" at the top there, and if so, what makes you believe this to be plausible, considering this occurred in a giant crowd of protesters (all anti-Mubarak), and all the news reports indicate the specific group that did it (of which there were "dozens") was a part of their ranks?
     
    #507 KIMaster, Feb 17, 2011
  8. Nettdata

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    Correct, meant to say "pro".

    But really, I won't address this again. Plausible means just that, it doesn't mean likely or actually. It means that if that was indeed the case, it wouldn't come as a complete surprise. For further explanation and examples, go watch MythBusters.

    Quit being so fucking hard-headed about it. It's POSSIBLE that it could have gone down like that, and you can't say for a second otherwise. And don't try.

    It's not like the police forces are running around in Nazi uniforms or anything. They look like everyone else in the area. Take a look at the camera footage of the media crews that were attacked by just such groups recently; the attackers looked and acted like normal anti-Mubarek protesters, were actually police forces instead, and that took the crews by surprise. The media have also found piles of badges and boots and clothing that were ditched by the police force members on the side of the road so that they wouldn't be as easily recognized in the crowds.

    What they've done has already been shown to be fact, the only thing that is up for debate or question is whether or not they actually did this particular act.

    It's also possible it could have been members of the anti-Mubarek protesters too. Who knows?

    And just because there may be a small handful of pro-Mubarek groups acting within the protesters doesn't mean that there HAS to be such groups in EVERY protester group. That just makes no sense whatsoever.
     
    #508 Nettdata, Feb 17, 2011
  9. BL1Y

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    This thread is starting to look like the de facto drunk thread.

    I heard an interesting take on NPR today from a reporter who was in the thick of it.

    He pointed out that the extremists and the protesters share a common goal of eliminating (or at least reducing) Western influence in the region.

    Terrorists have tried to get rid of us with IEDs, and that just results in troop surges and increased expenses to fight them. Peaceful protests got rid our lackeys.

    While we here in the West are afraid that the violent extremists will take over, it's entirely plausible that a lot of people in the Middle East will see that peaceful demonstrations and the power of human dignity are more effective than bombs.
     
    #509 BL1Y, Feb 18, 2011
  10. Beefy Phil

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    Makes sense to me. Nearly every country experiencing major unrest is led by a pro-Western government (notable exceptions include Iran and Libya). Even Djibouti is seeing action. If this isn't a strong indication that our MENA policies are no longer tenable, I don't know what would be.
     
    #510 Beefy Phil, Feb 18, 2011
  11. Gravitas

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    Crazy Bahrain video.
     
    #511 Gravitas, Feb 19, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2015
  12. ghettoastronaut

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    On that note, some 84 people have been killed in Libya over the last three days according to Human Rights Watch.

    <a class="postlink" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12512536" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12512536</a>

    And here's another report from Bahrain, with a summary from slate.com

    <a class="postlink" href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703407304576153730131759762.html?mod=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopStories" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... TopStories</a>
     
    #512 ghettoastronaut, Feb 19, 2011
  13. Evildreams

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    I'm hoping the mob actually gets to Gadaffi and hopefully string him up from a tree. As a Maltese I can only say that the tin pot dictator has been a thorn in our side for decades now. On the down side, if Gadaffi loses control in Libya, it will destabilize the whole region. But still he's had it coming for years, hopefully the Libyan people will manage to do what Reagan failed to do in 1986.
     
    #513 Evildreams, Feb 19, 2011
  14. BL1Y

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    Holy fucking shit. Libyan forces shot and killed 15 people at a funeral for protesters killed during earlier demonstrations.

    <a class="postlink" href="http://english.aljazeera.net//news/africa/2011/02/2011219811665897.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://english.aljazeera.net//news/afri ... 65897.html</a>
     
    #514 BL1Y, Feb 19, 2011
  15. KIMaster

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    Yep; some dictators are more evil, violent, and ruthless than others. Gadaffi makes Mubarak look like a choirboy.
     
    #515 KIMaster, Feb 19, 2011
  16. BL1Y

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    Army opens fire in Bahrain. There were also reports that as demonstrators were fleeing the scene of a protest, helicopters fired live ammunition into the crowd.

     
    #516 BL1Y, Feb 19, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2015
  17. E. Tuffmen

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    I wouldn't expect Gadaffi to be going anywhere anytime soon. A LOT of people will have to die for that particular revolution to come off.
     
    #517 E. Tuffmen, Feb 20, 2011
  18. BL1Y

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    Protests have spread to Morocco.

    <a class="postlink" href="http://english.aljazeera.net//news/africa/2011/02/201122013428971616.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://english.aljazeera.net//news/afri ... 71616.html</a>

    It will be interesting to see, after the dust settles, what sort of supernational organization the free democratic Arab states form.
     
    #518 BL1Y, Feb 20, 2011
  19. dubyu tee eff

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    This is going to sound a little ridiculous, but in a way, shouldn't we have seen this coming? The arab world has been undergoing a baby boom for some time now, and now the people born in the boom have become young adults, we are seeing mass protests. America circa the 60's anyone?
     
    #519 dubyu tee eff, Feb 20, 2011
  20. ghettoastronaut

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    <a class="postlink" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12517327" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12517327</a>

    The death count in Libya is rising
    Also there has been at least one child born in Egypt in the last few days who has been named "Facebook": <a class="postlink" href="http://techcrunch.com/2011/02/19/facebook-egypt-newborn/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://techcrunch.com/2011/02/19/facebo ... t-newborn/</a>

    Tragic stories, both.

    And in related news, there's some rumblings going in in China: <a class="postlink" href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110220/ap_on_re_as/as_china_jasmine_revolution;_ylt=AkaX5w1gZgEUF9G9Cy7hKJ6s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTJzZTdoNm1tBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTEwMjIwL2FzX2NoaW5hX2phc21pbmVfcmV2b2x1dGlvbgRjcG9zAzIEcG9zAzYEc2VjA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yeQRzbGsDY2hpbmF0cmllc3Rv" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110220/ap_ ... F0cmllc3Rv</a>
     
    #520 ghettoastronaut, Feb 20, 2011
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