I will tell you one way in which our stricter gun laws have had an effect (i wont say its positive or negative, its just something thats happened), it has completely changed the culture and acceptance of guns amongst the general population. I grew up in the country and learned to shoot at a young age. I was 13 when the Port Arthur Massacre occurred and i had been shooting my dads guns (.22's, .308's and shotguns), under supervision of course, from about the age of 10. I also continued to shoot after the massacre because all dads guns were already registered, licensed and were legal to own under the new restrictions. These days though, you are almost looked at like some kind of freak for liking firearms. I have exactly one friend with a similar interest in firearms as i do (and we have a similar background). Everyone else though seems to regard guns and gun owners with a very wary eye, i wouldn't say they hate or fear them but they are definitely suspicious of them. When i go to the rifle range with my club i am the youngest guy there, by a good 20 years (at this stage i use the club guns while i go through the process of getting my own). Its all old boys who grew up shooting and there is very little young blood coming up the ranks because most people just don't even consider it as a sport or leisure activity. To the vast majority all they see is an instrument of murder. When i went to the US for a holiday last year we met up with some friends, who had been working in Whistler and came down to Vegas for a few days to hang with us. The very first thing i did was drag them and my girlfriend to a gun range. All 3 of them were very reluctant to shoot anything, particularly the girls. Once they got shooting though? They fucking loved it, especially the girls. I could almost hear their inner monologue: "Wow! this isnt so scary... what the hell was i so worried about? Its a safe environment, well supervised and its just damn fun... now i think ill shoot that m249 next" Has it changed how the criminal element view and use guns? Not one iota. What it has done is make guns a lot scarier for the general population and made the anti-gun lobbies job a lot easier.
Nevermind, I'm not getting sucked into another debate on gun control. I've done this enough for one lifetime.
At the end of the day - the deer, squirrel, etc. that was shot (literally) fed my family. The snake that was shot didn't bite my horse or kid or dog or me. The feral pig that we killed stopped destroying property and threatening human and livestock well being. I don't consider those deaths a great sacrifice. In each situation my family was better off.
This, definitely. I've always been amazed at the difference in views on guns in Arizona versus Massachusetts. Growing up in MA, none of my friends shot. None. I wouldn't say that they were terrified of them; it just wasn't something that they or their parents did. It just isn't part of the culture there. As a result, there were a lot more rabid anti-gun people around, and the laws reflected that. Here in Arizona, kids grow up shooting. It's usual for a kid to start shooting BBs when he's 5-6 years old, get a .22 for his tenth birthday, and start shooting larger-caliber rifles around 13-14 (if not sooner). There is no fear of guns, and as a result the laws (or lack thereof) reflect that. What about hunting? Proper wildlife management requires culling of game animals. Hunters actually contribute to biodiversity by keeping the numbers of those animals in check. Also, the meat is healthy and cheap; it positively contributes to the families of those who have venison stew for dinner instead of Bagel Bites. Not only that, hunting also promotes environmentalism; hunters are far more likely to understand their impact on the ecosystem and act accordingly. I will say this. The "community" surrounding personal defense firearms is disgusting. I'm appalled by discussions about guns that almost gleefully describe how well their chosen weapon will kill an attacker. I think of having a personal defense weapon as being akin to a tourniquet in a first aid kit - it's there if I need it, but I hope to God I never have to use it. I know very well that most people who get a 1911 or whatever for home defense are perfectly fine people, but damn, there are some seriously retarded people yelling at the top of their lungs and making asses of themselves. And the worst thing is that the anti-gunners see everyone like that. Instead of looking at the silent majority of gun owners, they see the herpa-derpers on Glocktalk fantasizing about legally killing people with their newest toy.
I posted this in the last gun discussion we had on this board: I used to feel this way. I had some bad experiences with idiots with guns when I was a teenager and I was fortunate I wasn't shot. So my image of a typical gun owner was the type of person who thought that guns were toys to play around with - espcially after everyone's had a few beers in them. When the concealed carry issue came up for Minnesota I was against it, because when I pictured a gun owner in my head the aforementioned idiots is what came into mind, and the thought of the likes of them getting a concealed carry permit was chilling. But when I thought I about it further I remembered that I had guns in my house too - I didn't think about it because guns were treated as any other potentially dangerous tool in my household and not toys to fuck around with. It made me realize that the large majority of legal gun owners are responsible citizens. Therein lies the fallacy, because in your typical person's mind that type of citizen absolutely understands the responsbility of gun ownership is never thought of as a gun owner in the first place because they aren't out masturbating about their guns or always bragging about how awsome they are. If you have any decent sized circle of friends you trust, it's likely several of them are gun owners, and you never knew about it. Since concealed carry became law in Minnesota I don't think I've seen one story about someone with a permit acting irresponsibly.
A casual reading of history does not support that last sentence of yours. Every other government in human history has eventually become tyrannical and predatory on its own citizens, why should the US be any different? I'm not saying it will happen in 2012, or in any of our lifetimes, or that the US might not beat the odds... I'm saying that 6,000 years of recorded history do not supply a single example in support of your assertion. Back on Focus: It's a path dependency we're stuck in, for good or for ill. The only way to get meaningful gun control in the US is to have the cops conduct unannounced, warrantless, house-to-house searches to confiscate guns, like the Redcoats in Ireland (all the time) or Scotland (after the '45). Otherwise, you're just disarming the law-abiding.
I've seen (and heard) a few people say they feel uncomfortable or scared of or being around firearms. How can you be scared of a firearm? You know exactly what the weapon is going to do when it operates. Be scared of the person behind the gun, because whether they are trying to hurt you or just being negligent and unsafe, there are plenty of other things that are interchangeable with a firearm that could do just as much harm as a gun can. It would be great if there was a solution that could get guns out of the hands of criminals and mentally unstable people and even people who demonstrate a disregard of safety when using them. As was mentioned earlier in the thread, education about firearms should be the thing pushed for when it comes to this issue because controlling weapons is so polarizing pushing the issue isn't going to make any headway, it's just the two sides yelling at each other about how the other side is wrong rather than trying to reach a decision. We might not be able to come up with a way to get guns out of the hands of criminals right now, but there is always more that can be done when it comes to reducing the amount of accidental shootings we have.
It's fear of the unknown. I'm scared whenever I start hauling a new trailer behind my Jeep, because I don't know how it will act - whether it will fishtail, if the balance is right, how much drag it's going to have, etc. I had the same apprehension the same time I used a tablesaw or a chainsaw. Many of the tools that we take for granted in 'civilized' society are by definition, destructive. They enable us to enforce our will upon resisting objects - whether it be a knife to slice a tomato, chemicals to eliminate weeds from the lawn, or a firearm to control the wild hog population.
I can understand the fear over firearms. For some of us it's no big deal since we grew up with them and it was something that was just always around. But for others that haven't, their hesitation and nervousness around them is totally justified. Guns are dangerous if you don't know what you're doing or how to handle them. Its a responsibility when it comes to ownership and carrying them around. And the idea that many gun related injuries come from people not handling them correctly or not locking them up around children is also correct. I love guns and having them, but I'm not going to pretend every gun owner is just as responsible and careful as I am.
Coming from Australia, the thought of even being around a gun must be significantly different to what it is in America. I've only held a firearm once, and that was during a trip to Thailand in a shooting range. Whilst it was definitely an awesome experience and I had a great deal of fun, I couldn't really say I felt totally comfortable while I was holding/using one, and I was on edge the whole time. This is mostly because it was such an alien experience. The reason I quote the above statement, is that do you think it's at all possible that someone like Holmes found it easier to purchase AND USE the guns and ammo because these sort of things are a lot more common in American lifestyle because of their gun laws? He wouldn't be as foreign to guns as say, somebody from Australia, so was it possibly easier for him to take the next step like he did. I will preface by saying that I do I agree with the sentinent that if somebody wants to kill a lot of people, gun laws probably aren't going to stop them. But maybe its easier for people living in America to make that instant connection?
I would argue that anyone who is not scared of guns is not properly respecting their power. Even if you have spent your life around one, they should still scare you. At the end of the day, a gun is always one slip up from a horrible accident, and responsible ownership requires that this thought never leave one's mind. I'd apply the same logic to a car, poisonous chemicals, bombs, whatever. This sort of fear saves lives. One vein that runs through this and most all gun talk is the idea that yes, all these accidents happen, but because I and/or my children have been taught proper gun safety, we're OK. Doesn't everyone think this, though? I imagine all the victims of this accident also probably would say they knew about gun safety as well. This sounds suspiciously like the idea that everyone thinks they're smarter than average, a better driver than average, etc. In almost every area, even when they know the statistics on accidents, people think these things happen to OTHER people. They can't happen to us, because we're special. I don't see why guns would be any different.
Amazingly this is the same reason many Americans carry in the first place. You watch these true crime shows, such as "I shouldn't be alive". By the third sentence out of the victims mouth describing being raped, kidnapped, beaten, tortured, etc. they say: "I never thought this could happen to me" and/or "This type of thing doesn't happen around here". I see your point when talking about firearms accidents; complacency kills. It kills when talking about firearms, it kills in a lot of dangerous situations. BUT you must also recognize the counter point as well. It's a give and take type of thing. I want to determine my own outcome and if I risk an accidental discharge as a means of helping to avoid a violent demise at the hands of someone else that is a chance I am personally willing to take.
It's not... just as ODEN says, "complacency kills." Accidents with guns are rare yet can obviously have grave consequences, just like driving your car. But to say I should be afraid of my guns is too far, like I should be nervous simply being in the same room as one. Diligent with regard to safety and conscious of the risks is better, like operating any other potentially dangerous thing. I think your argument could simply extend to any useful object that could hurt you when misused. Switch "guns" with "cars" and it's the same.
I see where you're coming from, but I would change the word "fear" with "respect". When I handle dangerous tools that I'm comfortable with, whether it be a chainsaw, guns, chemicals, or whatever, I'm not afraid at all. I do have respect for the tool I'm using though, and I'm aware of what can happen if I use it improperly. Being afraid when using a tool that is potentially dangerous increases the chances of something bad happening.
Depends on rare. We're talking about over 20,000 per year* according to most numbers. Sure, there are a lot of gun owners out there, but I has trouble thinking of 20K annual incidents as rare. It seems that you missed the part where I said "I'd apply the same logic to a car, poisonous chemicals, bombs, whatever." ODEN, re: "complacency kills", you make a fine point, but it's ultimately not in conflict with the one I'm making. It's less about complacency and more about the human tendency to assume that statistics do not apply to us. The point I'm making is that we as human beings love to imagine that there is this other population of people who are stupider/less skilled/less careful who have all the accidents, and we good and responsible drivers/gun owners/construction workers/whatever are fine. "Accidents happen, but I'M careful." Since almost everyone thinks this, it obviously can't really be true for plenty. As often as not, we are the idiots. * A continual frustration for me in this thread is that the state of firearm statistics is terrible. I've somehow turned up estimates of 20,000 and 200,000 for the same figure, both from what I'd consider to be reputable sources. The same thing seems to be happened for almost anything else you want to look up besides deaths. For example, there's a "2.5 million crimes prevented by guns" number floating out there, which seems patently absurd when you consider that it is double the FBI estimate for recorded violent crimes (murder, rape, robbery, aggravated assault) in 2010.
David E. Petzal's take on the Aurora shooting (Petzal is the Rifles Field Editor for Field & Stream magazine): Spoiler link: <a class="postlink" href="http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/gun-nuts/2012/07/my-thoughts-aurora-co-shooting" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/gun ... o-shooting</a>
After reading the part in bold, I am fine with this argument. Yes, a gun is dangerous and a major responsibility that not everyone is equipped to handle in a responsible manner. Just realize that this is no different than driving a car, preparing food, or many other activities in our lives.