To clear things up a little, the point I was trying to make is that the person who sells a firearm to someone who is not legally able to own one is a criminal just as much as the person illegally buying it and should be punished as such to the fullest extent of the law. There is no loophole, both parties of the transaction are expected to act within a certain social contract. A felon (or any other disqualifying criteria) is not allowed to buy a gun and a seller is not allowed to sell to a felon. The person who can legally own a gun is not the criminal for buying a firearm from someone face to face and not having a background check ran on them (as long as those rules are followed). As the article pointed out the sellers were told that the buyer was unable to legally purchase and continued the transaction anyway. The current Federal law says that the buyer and seller are punishable with UP TO 10 years in prison. Now, several of the sellers were given a monitoring program and some lost their Federal license to sell as punishment. Where is the deterrent to to either the buyer or seller? You violated Federal law and we're just going to watch you to make sure you won't do it again (until we leave), or tell you to find a new way to make illegal money. Where is the 10 years? I would venture a guess that if more people had a hard 10 year Federal sentence dropped on them for breaking the laws that are in place currently, the next guy would probably think twice about who he is selling to. As above, if you are caught with a firearm and are not legally able to own one....well, see you in ten years. There should be a hard and fast deterrent to a criminal who posses an illegal firearm. These laws are already in effect in every state and at the Federal level. We just need to enforce what is there. These were just the first major city statistics that I ran across but here is some info from Baltimore (more can be found here http://www.baltimorecity.gov/Residents/HealthSafety/SaferCity/GunStatistics.aspx) : Spoiler "Statistics from Baltimore’s Gun Offender Registry show that very few offenders charged with misdemeanor gun crimes serve significant jail time." "Eighty-two percent of all jail time imposed by Baltimore’s Criminal Courts for gun offenders charged with these crimes this year was suspended." "The average amount of jail time served by misdemeanor gun offenders is four months." So, get caught in Balto with an illegal gun and get 4 months? Wow, I'm sure the criminals there are shaking at the thought of that. To close, this fight should be won with a strong court system, not by depriving the law abiding citizen. /rant
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-4-most-meaningless-arguments-against-gun-control/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-4-most- ... n-control/</a> Fuck it, why not.
I guess you are referring to paternalism. Oddly enough, I'm pretty sure every state has seat belt laws (you have to wear one or face a fine if caught). That's state paternalism at its finest and no one seems to be getting into screaming matches about that. (And no, the law was not enacted to prevent 'flying human missiles' - it was to protect people against their own stupidity.) Also, proponents of gun control are not concerned with your own safety -- they are concerned about gun owners' infringing on the safety of others.
Sorry for showing up late to the party, but I feel like I have a few things to add to this. To start, I am a licensed firearms dealer (FFL) and my company sells and transfers a lot of guns- we are one of the largest retailers in the country, but not a big-box store. I also live in a city with one of the highest violent crime rates in the US. Finally, the paperwork for my concealed-carry license is being processed at we speak. Admittedly, I took far too long to start carrying a concealed weapon and I guess that's where I'll start. First, a handgun is a horribly inefficient weapon. The number that I have heard thrown around is roughly 80% of all handgun victims survive. In my experience, novice gun owners, gun control advocates, and experienced shooters all seem to believe the misconception that a .45 or a 9 mm or a XXX handgun is a death ray. I have heard gun owners report that a .40 will literally rip someone's arm off. A firearms instructor once told me that ambulance drivers take their time on their way to an emergency when they know that someone was hit with a .45 because whoever was shot was probably already dead. This is utter bullshit. Along these same lines is the total destruction of terminology in the media and legislation. Banning armor piercing ammunition and assault rifles seems perfectly reasonable until you realize that Paw Paw's deer rifle will zip right through a bullet proof vest when most AR-15 ammo will not (equipment type withstanding). Second, the average gun fight (something like 80% again) follows the rule of threes. Three shots, three seconds, three meters. In other words, the entire confrontation happens very quickly. The bad guy wants to kill you, you're not too cool with that, and someone gives up all inside of ten feet, with three shots fired, and three seconds elapsing. Under these conditions, a handgun is about the only defensive weapon one can practically carry. Personally, I have found myself in two scenarios where I would have felt far more comfortable if I was carrying a concealed weapon. The most tense was when I asked some trespassers to leave my company's property and they took it on themselves to wait for thirty minutes for me to return. They were very clearly looking for a confrontation and I wanted nothing to do with it. Even if I was carrying a firearm, I would not confront them directly. I have no idea if they were armed, but there were two of them and one of me. Next, I'm going to address some realities as an FFL dealer. Most importantly, there is no such animal as a gun registry in the sense that there is no national database that holds firearms owner information. When a buyer fills out a background check (4473), we are making sure that the buyer is legally permitted to own a firearm. Another function of the 4473 (pdf) is allow law enforcement to backtrack a firearm should it be used in a crime or recovered under auspicious circumstances. In the case of the Aurora shooting, the feds were able to tell exactly where the shooter's firearms originated very quickly. They were also able to discern that the firearms were purchased legally. There has been some mention on this thread to unscrupulous dealers selling guns to people who shouldn't own firearms. I can assure you that the ATF is doing everything in its power to stop the sale of firearms to unqualified individuals. BATF audits (records checks) have risen drastically in the past three years and license revocations are at an all time high. As a firearms dealer, I am required to keep perfect records. If I am 95% compliant, I can count on losing my license. To give some perspective, my company's last ATF audit lasted roughly 60 days, covered roughly 50,000 pages of acquisition and disposition records reached back over twenty years. I can expect the next audit to do the same. A practically immeasurable level of non-compliance is grounds for license revocation. That is the reality of being a gun dealer and I can assure you that businesses are losing their licenses daily. Some shop owners are facing serious crimes. Finally, as an FFL dealer, I have the right to refuse business to anyone, and I'll do it in a heartbeat. Should some asshole mention that he hates his neighbor while he fills out a 4473, I have the right to tear it up and throw it in the trash. Fuck him. Fuck his second amendment rights. He's not buying a gun in my business. Finally, I take a lot of comfort in the fact that I do things every day that can kill me graveyard dead and it is my responsibility to keep myself from dying. I understand that it is my job to remain mentally aware and nobody is to blame but me should I lapse and kill myself or someone else. It is a tremendous responsibility and something that can never be taken lightly. Be that as it may, this is a responsibility that shouldn't stop us. It should encourage us to be bold enough to train properly and know that we have a job to do- that job being our own survival. Frankly, I feel far more vulnerable when I operate a speedboat in frigid weather and in the dark (duck hunting boat race- Bluedog, can I get an amen) than I do handling firearms. From what I have seen, this is a trait that is becoming unique to Americans- this idea that we can do things that can kill the fuck out of us and it can be fun. So, I'm going to keep selling guns responsibly, taking risks, and protecting me and mine.
You shouldn't be scared of guns. Respect them, but don't shy away. Personally, I think every adult should have basic knowledge of a firearm, including mandatory safety classes. I'm far from a doomsdayer, but fear of guns might cost you you're life on day and fear will only hurt you. Being as this is the "idiot board" and some of you may live up to the name, accidents do happen. But I'd take my chances vs. the Downs teen buying a shotgun at Walmart any day.
More accurately the law was enacted because the state doesn't want to spend its time and money cleaning corpses off the road.
I've learned more about actual American attitudes from this place and the old message board more than anyhere else in my life put together. And while I hear my fellow Canadians constantly complain about America's gun problem and recent rash of nutbags slaughtering innocent people, I say this: you can't change it. On the surface our two countries are very similar, but when it comes to guns we are night and day. And you can trace it back to the beginning. Weaponry is hard-wired into American DNA. While my country achieved independence on sitting quietly and not causing a scene, our friends underneath us achieved theirs on bullets and blood. And since then, while we love going to the cottage on long weekends America relieves THEIR stress by the acts of Shooting Shit and the art of Blowing Shit Up. It's in practically every aspect of their culture... Their heroes: Teddy Roosevelt. Badass cowboy, cavalry leader and great white hunter shot shit around Africa sans map, also on Mt. Rushmore because he was a truly progressive and amazing president. World's coolest actor Clint Eastwood holding that slick .44 magnum. Their science: They mastered the atom, and then immedietly designed an explosive that could boil the alloy out of framing steel and eternally scorch a person's silhouette into the brick wall of a school in one nanosecond. Just plain everywhere: Around where I live, you will only find guns in actual gun shops which there are very few of in my city. In America, Wal-Mart sells them over the counter. In the southern States, I've seen people walking around with them on their hip. Or while jogging. I found that strange, since the mugger would also have to be a jogging to mug you, but whatevs. DIFFERENT STROKES, PEOPLE. Also, American firearm killings have dropped drastically. In 2007 there were near 12,000 firearm murder in the U.S (more than 93% were handguns) and this next year it is looking to dip below 10,000. That's still a LOT of fucking deaths that should not have happened, but something is working for the better down there recently. What it is I have no idea, since gun SALES are presently at an all-time high. My personal vendetta against guns are intentionally concealed handguns. A friend of mine was shot to death-- in cold blood, alone in the dark-- with a snub-nosed .357. A gun intentionally designed to be small you can sneak in and kill somebody. Why do these things exist? I'm all for people that want to hunt. You want toown guns? If you're safe and responsible you can own enough guns to take over a small nation and go shoot old cars in fields with them or whatever. My line is drawn on snub-nosed pistols. My anger with guns begins and ends there. The truth is, you will never throw down a true gun control law down on America because they simply won't stand for it. Guns are in their country's original walking papers so a threat to guns = a threat to freedom and our friends to the south do not like being told what to do unless a really rich person talking (sorry, that a joke. But you know that it isn't). That, and there are more guns than citizens in the USA, so good luck rounding them up to begin with. And good luck taking them. Americans are VERY good shots.... Spoiler
This might be redundant for some of you, but like Crown Royal I find this thread incredibly fascinating. I have a deep love for American culture: My brother has lived in Texas for over a decade, and I have traveled the nation quite extensively, and loved every second of it. Compared to my average countryman I know quite a bit about the American cultural landscape. However, I am still in morbid awe over how deeply ingrained guns are in the American zeitgeist. I`ll be honest: I have a profound and fearful respect for firearms; to me they are nothing but instruments of death. People might sneer at the Cracked article, but with my cultural background, it makes perfect sense. The arguments about how guns are singularly designed to kill, as well as the fact that they facilitate humankind`s penchant for killing, resonate with me. I am grateful for the fact that guns don`t hold the same significance where I live. At the same time, I am not blind to the historical context with which Americans view firearms. They symbolize personal freedom, and the safe ownership and usage of them is a sign of integrity and responsibility. Changing such a massive paradigm seems unrealistic. Americans love guns, and as several have pointed out, they are an irrevocable part of American history. It seems almost as if a biannual massacre is the price to pay. Understand: In the other Western nations, news of another shooting spree in the States is never met with surprise, but is almost considered par for the course. Guns are ubiquitous, and God knows how many other factors contribute to the phenomenon of shooting as many civilians as possible before suicide-by-cop or life imprisonment, as well as the huge amount of gun-related fatalities in general. My personal theories include (in addition to the millions of readily available firearms) poor government healthcare, especially with regards to mental health, occasionally massive social inequality, or the more nebulous explanation: Violence has a large part in the American national psyche. Do not take this post as derogatory, but rather consider it the perspective of a person living in a country far from the American continent. Last year we had our first experience with terrorism, and it was the work of a right-wing domestic extremist. It included the bombing of our seat of goverment, and even more devastating, the shooting of dozens of children at a youth camp. The recent episode in Colorado got me thinking about the nature of gun ownership and reminded me about how my own country views this issue.
A story on firearm training: Last year my stepson shot and killed himself, it was ruled a suicide. It turns out it wasn't so much a suicide as brutal, ignorant stupidity. He was playing Russian Roulette. At 27. With a 2 year old daughter depending on him. Why did he do such a blatantly stupid thing? For one, his mother was VERY against firearms. I wasn't allowed them in the house, I wasn't allowed to talk about them, I wasn't allowed to teach my boy to shoot. I had to keep my guns at my father's house and if I was going shooting, my boy must not know where I was going. Guns hurt people, guns are bad, guns kill was her mantra. So in the end, her absolute denial of anything gun related created a man with no idea how to handle a firearm. He responded in a way that you might expect...ignorance. "I'll just point this at my head and pull the trigger...what's the worst that could happen?" Indeed. The first thing you learn about firearms is NEVER point them at anything unless you plan on putting a big fucking hole in it. He never learned that lesson, because his mother wanted to pretend guns don't exist. (I am not laying the blame completely on my ex here, she's suffered terribly through all of this. The lack of gun education was certainly a contributing factor though, as were booze, drugs, & unresolved mental conditions.) Growing up in North Idaho, gun safety was a required course in Jr. High. By high school, during hunting season almost every pick up in the student parking lot had 2-3 rifles in the back window gun rack. All these trucks had ammo in them because most of us went hunting before school. You know how many school gun incidents we had in the 20-25 years I lived in my hometown? 0. After Columbine we started having them quite frequently. Why? Because someone (Usually from California and new to the area) would see a kid unloading and putting a rifle away in a case, off school property, and call the police. What's the solution? I have no idea, but I think educating the masses on firearm use, safety, and handling would be a good start so folks realize that guns aren't the big bad wolf. They're just an inanimate object that in the right hands are probably safer then an automobile operated by a competent driver.
Toytoy, I am saddened to hear about your loss, this is truly a tragic event. However, with all due respect, I believe you may be taking the wrong lesson from this tragedy. I have had a loaded gun pointed at me. It belonged to my live in girlfriend, whom was a nut about 'gun safety' and had 'training.' The fact of the matter is that if you have firearms, you are far more likely to be a victim of a gunshot than if you don't. Those are the stats, in study after study. Suicides are much higher as well. Guns are good for exactly one thing: shooting people and animals. That's it. That's what they're built for, that's what they do, and they do it quite well. I believe the real lesson in your stepson's tragic accident is that guns in the home are not a good idea. Is it someone's right to have such a thing? Absolutely. Is it advisable, in my opinion, to exercise that right? No. Again, my condolences, because other words fail me.
I honestly have no idea. I wasn't about to ask his grieving mother that question, because really who cares? What's done is done and it really doesn't matter where he got it.
Not to hate on you specifically but... No. Just... No. Even the slightest bit of research (look no further than http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland#Carrying_guns) will tell you that this is most decidedly NOT the case. I've been born and raised in Switzerland, and the only time you see people carrying guns is a) they work in some security-affiliated field that requires them to carry a gun b) they are soldiers on duty, returning from duty (duty being the silly euphemism of annually repeating 3-week training courses) or dragging their rifles to the range for their annual target-practice if, in case b) you are carrying the gun with the bolt in the gun, you will receive a swift judiciary ass-kicking dealt by any law-enforcement or army officer that catches you. While you can often talk your way out of that, if you're carrying ammo, you're going down hard. As a somewhat disconcerting and fucking racist aside, I give you the list of nationalities BANNED (more specifically, banned until they get a special federal permit) from acquiring a gun permit in my fair country: Croatia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Turkey, Sri Lanka, Albania, Algeria. WHAT. THE. FUCK. Well, I suppose it ain't racial profiling if it's in the law then, is it... Now as to the ratio of gun possession to overall population, yes, it is indeed very high and we do have very few issues of people going nuts and shooting others (accidents excluded, they happen far too frequently, but are mainly due to negligence/drunkenness in the army). I honestly don't know how come the number of shootings is that low. I think it might be because shooting someone with an assault rifle takes some pre-mediation (i.e. you're not going to be taking your AR for a walk in the park when some punk jumps you) and it's illegal to carry your officer's handgun unless you need it for your job, i.e. there needs to be some criminal intent for you to be carrying a loaded gun around town in any case. I think Switzerland underscores the point that the cultural disposition towards guns matters more than the actual proliferation of guns - Finland and Sweden also rank among the top 10 in the world in terms of gun per capita, but aren't known as very violent places. But I really don't know and it doesn't mean enough to me to step on any pro-gun rights people's toes. If you're interested in a rant on militia systems in general and the Swiss Army in particular: Spoiler I also honestly don't think the militia system would work in a state that is not immediately dependent on its armed forces (e.g. Israel) but wants to actually accomplish anything with its army. The Swiss Army (or Militia if you wish) is HORRIBLE. I have been serving on and off for 6 years now and it SUCKS DONKEY BALLS. They honestly send us to guard foreign embassies in Berne and Geneva with little more than a refresher course on how to handle your gun, how to perform an arrest (not even safely), a tutorial on how to use your mace and a full clip for your AR. 20-30 year olds standing in the middle of a city, supposed to guard a foreign embassy with their lives if the shit hits the fan? Yeeeeah, I didn't think so. The only parts of the army that actually work are the ones that predominantly have professional soldiers in them (they have normal job contracts) - these guys are motivated, believe in what they are doing and get shit done. The rest? Smoking pot before a life-fire exercise? Seen it. Filling canteen with vodka instead of water on a hot summer's day and subsequently trying to participate in a live-fire exercise? Seen it. An officer ordering soldiers to shoot a pyramid of oil-barrels containing petrol with the training bazookas (that don't explode because they're made of fucking plaster), subsequently seriously endangering the nearby town's freshwater supply due to spilled petrol? Seen it. Moronity abounds and the sooner that money-eating shitpile disappears and gets transformed into a standing, professional army, the better.
I'm sure pacifism is great in theory, but if you're not putting yourself on the same playing field as the average gun-loving American, you're at the mercy strangers. Maybe I'm too cynical, but I'll bet my lifetime handling of a firearm over public safety any day of the week.
I missed this and it was too late to edit. Did you even read his story? He grew up without guns in the home. When he died he was 27 years old, he was old enough to legally own a gun and be responsible for himself. And Russian Roulette is no fucking accident.
This was very illuminating for a non-American. It solidifies my impression that there is an arms race component to gun ownership as well. No one I know or have even heard of has even imagined wanting to carry a gun for personal protection, because there is no (real or imagined) need for it.
I did. Did you? Specifically the part where he talked about not having guns in the house led his stepson to be ignorant about them? Right. And the connection toytoy made was that by NOT having guns in the home, his stepson was ignorant about guns and their use. If you read between the lines of toytoy's post, there seems to be an implication that what happened was an accident, though it was ruled a suicide. See the connection between my post and the situation yet? What this has to do with my post is beyond me. I said nothing about being a certain age. My point was that guns in the home do not lead to less accidents or less suicides, in fact, the reverse is glaringly true. I'm not saying this is the situation toytoy's stepson was in, or he was home, or anything of that nature. My point was, and remains, that toytoy's contention that having guns around the house and his stepson may have prevented this type of tragedy, because his stepson wouldn't have been as ignorant (his word, not mine) of their use is just not, in my opinion, the lesson to be taken from this tragedy. Of course not. But again, toytoy's post seems to indicate that it was accidental based on the stepson's ignorance of handguns due to the fact that he was not used to guns because they weren't around the house when he was growing up. I was disagreeing with that assertion.
Let me explain (To the best of my knowledge) what happened. My boy got a gun, a .38 revolver. He had a friend over who witnessed the entire thing. He put the gun to his head and pulled the trigger. He left no note or gave any indication of contemplating suicide. I was able to piece together a very likely scenario based on those facts and my knowledge of how his mind worked. #1 It would take a full blown idiot (Or someone with no knowledge of how to handle a firearm) to "Accidentally" shoot themselves with a revolver, it is just to easy to clear and verify that it is unloaded. Even after clearing and verifying it is unloaded, you still don't point it at anything and you especially don't pull the trigger when it is pointed at your own head. #2 My step son had issues and partnering those issues with the lack of firearm knowledge is a recipe for a disaster of this type. In a nutshell, my boy was always trying to prove he was tougher and crazier then anyone around him. In other words, I believe he was trying to show how tough and crazy he was in front of his buddy by placing a gun to his own head and pulling the trigger figuring the odds were greatly in his favor. They weren't. Would he have done the same thing if he'd had the proper respect for and knowledge as to how to handle a gun? Possibly. We'll never know for sure because he was never provided with those tools. Even without this tragic occurrence I would've said that my boy was the last person that should've had a gun. He had no training, was unstable, and spent a great deal of his time locked up in the county jail for various drug infractions and misdemeanors. All those factors combined to create a recipe for a lethal cocktail. I seriously doubt that the gun was obtained through legal channels. My brother-in-law told me just last night that he had sold a gun to my step brother and when my step brother went to register it he was denied because 10 years previously he had been arrested for domestic violence. They called my brother-in-law and had him come pick up the gun. I think that was definitely a step in the right direction as far as keeping guns away from someone that should not have them. I wish there was a clear cut answer to this question, but there isn't. Most (Legally obtained) gun owners are very careful with their firearms. having been taught to use and store them properly. I can't see punishing the majority of gun owners by instituting more restrictions and laws that won't even cause a blip on the radar of the idiots that are intent on being idiots.