That's sort of my point though. I can sort of see it too. But I see "Well that could be a gun I guess..." They see, "Those guys are definitely carrying guns. In fact, I am so sure that it is a gun that I can even tell what model it is." The human mind has a known tendency to see what it wants to see or what it is already expecting to see. I'm worried about the culture that leads them to see insurgents with AKs where there are none. To be clear: I'm not even criticizing the individual soldiers. I think they made an honest mistake. I'm criticizing the culture within the military that led to this incident. It's uncomfortably reminiscent of Amadou Diallo and the NYPD.
It's kind of fucked up that life and death decisions are made based on a black and white image on a small view-screen. I mean, if carrying a big camera is enough to mark you as an insurgent and fair game for a couple dozen 30mm, at least they could be using hi-def monitors. But who can really blame the soldiers for this mess? Shit like this happens all the fucking time. All I can say is I'm god damn grateful that the government has not put me in a situation where it is up to me to distinguish between plain clothed civilians and plain clothed enemies and decide who is not a threat and who needs to die. Has anyone on this board (non-mil.) had that kind of responsibility before?
Maybe they were just really eager to get that kill streak for the Pave Low. If those guys on the ground had the Cold-Blooded perk, this wouldn't have happened.
As a believer in Just War Theory it's very important to me whether the war the US is engaged in meets the criteria. The Iraq war does not so the US military or its allies shooting anyone (even if they fire upon you) is murder and thus I found this video very disturbing.
Nah man they already were using the chopper gunner, they were obviously going for the nuke. To bad that kill streak has been taken away from them as well.
What's sad is that while I was watching this and this part came up I flashed back to all those fps games where I had a perfectly clear shot but couldn't take it because I was reloading or whatever. Obviously the footage is of real people but I think the feeling is probably the same. In that dude's mind, here was the enemy. And the enemy might get away if he didn't take that shot right now. But realizing these are real people, with real fucking insides being splattered all over the sand, taking their last breathes....how can someone watch this as a human being and not want to avoid it at all costs? I'm not trying to turn this into a "war or no war" philosophical debate but the fact that hundreds of thousands of other Iraqis died in similar wars, either at our hands or theirs...what makes a rational, loving person say they are fucking "pro-war" for christ's sake? Or "let's go over there and kill em all". This country almost needs a war in our heartland so when little Susie Applepie gets her head splattered by an exploding shell in Hickville, Iowa, no one is going to holler for a good ole war in a while.
I think we just need to airdrop Iphones and Jersey Shore DVDs into all these crazy militants sites. Hopefully they become so self absorbed that blowing themselves up in a public market takes a back seat to trolling for poon and Jager Bombs.
I just almost puked. And only made it 10 minutes in. Until you yourself have been in any type of situation even vaguely approaching this, you have no idea what would go through your mind. What being there in the first place is even slightly like. The fact people are making light of someone actually having to take another life, erroneously or not, even though it's their "job" to do so, you have no idea how it affects someone (although I do realize this board tends to take any serious comment & turn it at some point in time). The fact that I'm sure later they found out it was erroneous, how would you like to live with that on your conscious? While I'm sure I'll get negative reps on that comment, it's my personal feelings.
From what I can tell in the video, and my recent brush up on engagement criteria, the people in the video were doing the following: carrying what appeared to be weapons (two dude's at 3:38-4:00 looked a helluva lot like they had an AK47 and an RPG, can't deny that), which is a hostile act; and both massing together, locating themselves in a hot zone, and peering around corners pointing their supposed weapons at friendly forces, which is hostile intent. If there is a hostile act and hostile intent, then engagement criteria is met and we can shoot. As far as shooting the van, it was not properly marked with the Red Cross or Red Crescent or anything medical whatsoever, therefore it can be considered an enemy combatant. And also, gimme a fucking break, NO ONE would have noticed the kids in the passenger window if the video did not specifically point out two blurry objects that have less of a chance of being identified than the weapons, they were a couple of light blobs in a dark space, that's all. I don't care if this sounds brutal, but I'd much rather have a few of them dead than some of our soldiers because someone made the mistake of not recognizing and shooting the hostile's in the first place. We have strict rules in place for a reason, to keep our boys alive, and if you have a problem with that, join the Military, work your way up to General/Admiral and make the necessary changes, don't criticize this shit from the safety that we provide by doing these things in the first place. I laugh at everyone who points fingers at what's done especially since none of those fuckers have ever been in the FOG OF WAR in the first place. In case some of you don't know, fog of war = uncertainty. In the fog of war decisions have to be made right fucking then without hesitation, with someone shooting at you, and 98% of the time without enough information. Like it or not, I don't give a fuck, my .02.
I am with Diablo on this one. I watched the video the entire way through. It all felt like a Michael Moore film to me, assumptions made of who was who, oh look at these two light blobs in the windows. Yeah it fucking sucks that people die in a war zone. Especially when they mass in groups, are carrying things that could be identified as weapons, and when there are helicopters in the air looking to provide cover for the troops on the ground. I'm all for seeing the war from my couch. But if you aren't going to be intelligent of your surroundings, much less realize that you have a very large force of troops looking for anything that might harm them right around the corner. They probably shouldn't have been there. Much less why were they there? To take pictures of tanks? To bastardize our military like this video is trying to do? I can't really sympathize, at all. Sucks for the families, but seriously? Just unfortunate all of the liberal fucks have to hop on the bandwagon that they need more control of our troops. War is ugly, people don't like to see the effects of it, and they shouldn't. But when someone petitions for information on a military operation, and see some pretty nasty shit. I don't understand what there is to be shocked about. There is a reason people come back from wars with PTSD, they see some fucked up shit. Most people just don't understand that, whatever.
So, who's making assumptions about what now? The reporters were standing around waiting for a patrol to come by so they could take opportunistic pictures and make the military look bad, so who gives a fuck they were killed? It's not even clear that they knew a patrol was going to be coming through their location. I mean, ultimately this comes down to being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and it's really hard to cast judgment considering what the video looked like, but this is nonsense. Even if they were going to take pictures to try and bastardize the military (a rather ridiculous charge) that doesn't change anything about them being shot on, in retrospect, mistakenly.
I have nothing worthwhile to add about the video, but to go back to Kubla Khan's point about the "bad guys" dressing like civillians; This and the "weak stomach" of the media and general public for any sort of casulaties, whether it be civilians or friendly-country soldiers, is their greatest weapon. They have no respect or value for human life, human rights or the "rules of war" and they will continue to use these guerrilla tactics to undermine our resolve. I know people who have served in the Israeli army during the major conflicts with the Palestinians, and I've heard stories about them packing female suicide bombers explosives in their underwear because they know that not only will the Israeli soldiers not search them there out of respect, but because they can raise a stink in the media and make it a "human rights issue". Note I am not here to debate the validity of these conflicts, just that I'm worried that the we will not be able to win this fight, and still maintain some kind of respect for human life and human rights. Having been through J-School, I strongly believe that the Marxist post-modernist radical bent of professors has irrevocably poisoned our present and future media professionals, but that's another story.
I will only say the following: If I was in a convoy and they told me that there was even a 1% chance that I was walking into an ambush I would say to obliterate every last single bit of life in the area. Call me a coward if you want but at least I am honest about not wanting to die in a foreign country away from my family and friends.
Ernie over at EHOWA has a pretty decent take on it. He's former Air Force, and over the last 9 years I've visited his site, been one of the most patriotic, common sense making motherfuckers I've ever read. Here's what he says.
Nicely put Diablo. I respect your professional opion and I think you've nailed it with this post. Even up here in the not-so-frozen North, this is a media shitstorm. As expected, they are just focusing on the sensational aspects of this video. What's unfortunate is the general public will not take a moment to fill in the blanks the media left and ponder the issue. They will just puff up and act outraged. I intend to use your post as reference material in the upcoming debates I know that I'm going to be engaged in.
You're in for some rough terrain there. I've often found myself taking flack for speaking of my respect for anyone willing to serve their country, and even in sober conditions with people who are normally reasonable, I'm hard-pressed to get in a sentence or two before I'm hit with a cluster-fuck of hate just for mentioning the subject. Most folks who don't have military training and experience don't know shit, and anything they can tell you was likely gleaned from a movie or a video-game. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know a hell of a lot either, but I know enough to say that serving in the military is not cut and paste, and the situations a soldier is put in are not in the same league as what we deal with as civilians. FOCUS: It's a shitty thing to have happened, made worse that the U.S military didn't man up and admit their mistakes. I find it amusingly ironic that the quote from Orwell was included in the intro.
Without getting too political, I'd just like to say that I highly doubt the fact that that wasn't reported had anything to do with the U.S. military. Things like this are mainly political, and frankly, politicians overwhelming fear of being poorly represented by a media that is all too hungry to trash whoever they can (and an American public that eats that shit up) prohibits the military from doing its job. The way things are, there are going to be very few wars actually won in future, if any at all. Which, inevitably, winds up with one country occupying the other for fucking ever. Remember back in the day when armies firebombed whole cities, and people actually won wars? Doubt those folks would bat an eye at this. Not saying one way is more right than the other, that's just how it is. Interesting that you say that. I'm with you on the nature of contemporary professors (not just in the journalism department), and how that correlates to this story, but I'm wondering how you see that influence working in modern media. Not that I can't see it in some ways, I'd just like your opinion.
What culture is that, exactly? A culture of defending yourself from an enemy? A culture of engaging an enemy to protect assets/personnel? I'll tell you what - go spend a year or so getting shot at, mortared and bombed by an enemy that intentionally makes themselves indistinguishable from the civilians around them, and then re-evaluate what you think is some kind of trigger-happy "Kill! Kill!" culture.
Two things the military are very good at are burying things and refusing to admit fault. My gut feeling would be this was mostly a military cover up. As far as I am aware before the footage there was an engagement between ground troops and insurgents. The Reuters guys were aware of this and headed to the scene expressly to cover it.